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Author Topic: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)  (Read 26796 times)

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virtualpsycho

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Hello my name is Sean Brady. I am a student researching the reason behind the recent (1990's - present) unpopularity of point and click graphic adventure games.

I was wondering if it was possible to get your opinion on the whole matter. I am dealing with both the development/commercial reasoning and consumer/player interest. If it is possible to get your opinion on both sides that would be fantastic.

I appreciate the time given and thank you sincerely.

The question ultimately is "what factors account for the unpopularity of point and click graphical adventures?"

NOTE: The opinions expressed will be transcribed within the research dissertation with the names of the suppliers beside them but it can be arranged to remain anonymous if required.

Any indication about individuals who from your knowledge would provide a valuable viewpoint, please don't hesitate to say, thank you.

Thank you once, again.

Any opinion / voice is greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2009, 11:38:31 AM by virtualpsycho »
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Spellbreaker

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Re: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2009, 05:20:39 PM »

Unpopularity? Sorry, but thats simply not true. Adventure Games are selling very well for a quite long time. Examples? Black Mirror, Sam'n'Max Season 1 & 2, Tales of Monkey Island, Still Life, Post Mortem, Ankh, Secret Files I&II, etc etc etc.... The "feeling" that Adventures are unpopular simply came up with LucasArts shutting down their Adventure "department" ( But in two days, Monkey Island Special Edition will come to Live, I don't know if thats a single project, or if LA wants to bring back more of the games or create new ones ).

What definitively gave Adventures a bad Image are the early tries of bringing them to 3D, like Simon the Sorcerer 3D, which was incredibly bad in points of Gameplay. ( Also I really don't know why Telltale Games gave "Tales of Monkey Island" this totally stupid click'n'drag movement. That really sucks in my opinion. ).

There were always good Adventures since 1990, and the sales weren't that bad.

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virtualpsycho

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Re: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2009, 05:24:41 PM »

Thank you, keep em comin.  ::rock

Spellbreaker, I am focusing on the fact that their hold on the majority of the market reduced significantly, thank you that opinion was extremely helpful and surprisingly different to the ones I have so far, thanks again.

 8)
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Re: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2009, 05:54:30 PM »

Unpopularity is probably not the best chosen word. There are no official sales numbers so we can only claim we know things from experience. It's a known "secret" that action titles sell much more but that doesn't mean that adventures sell less than they used too (they might, they might not). A possible explanation is that the market has grown much much bigger than it was 10-15 years ago and new players seem to turn to other genres (= less % in total sales but unrelated to number of copies). As an interesting sidenote, the last 2-3 years there are more adventures in production than the (wrongly imo) so-called "golden age of adventures".

The most important aspect of your question(s) is why many new & old players turn to other genres. I don't think I'm qualified enough (not enough game design & behind the scenes knowledge) to claim I have a definite answer but I can share some fast thoughts of my gaming habits. Adventures are usually much slower while other titles (action, strategy etc) are much faster and you get "into the action" instantly. Another thing is that, although in most genres the more you play the more progress you make in adventures that's not always the case. Getting stuck for sometime, thinking and try new things is always in the agenda. There are of course fundamental changes in all genres which have an impact on the choice (if I don't want to play a game based on reflexes I won't choose an action etc).
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virtualpsycho

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Re: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2009, 06:17:08 PM »

Thank you, keep em comin.   ::rock
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Akusa

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Re: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2009, 11:45:45 PM »

I think unpopularity is a little bit harsh, they are not anymore the focus point in the industry but Adventure Games still sell good at germany (not every one, even good ones get slapped and its a hard world but still, you can develop games and make profit). You will most likley know but Adventure Games where pioneers for graphic technology in their golden age.
For today, other genres took over, in the 90', the FPS began to take this task and other genres began to develop very nicely while adventures stopped more or less in their development. You could argue adventures reached their design zenith but it would miss the point and i will tell you why i think so.

So the biggest problem i see for today adventures is, they simply stopped to develop at some time and the fundamental gameplay did not change very much or new gameplay developed during the golden era where simply overlooked AND the huge amount of bad games flooded the market (exspecially the live action video era with 16 CD-ROMs) and killed adventures as a dominant genre more or less. While adventures lost slowly their momentum, at some point the RPG genre began to addopt gameplay parts from adventures. Dialog trees, simple item puzzles, etc. Modern Bioware games are more or less the modern reincarnation of adventure game in my eyes. Take down all the battle aspects of Biowares games since KotOR (while Planescape Torment started this development) and you get an very rich modern adventure. Bioware even said the time for action slowly fades away, so i think maybe Bioware could give the adventure genre new impulses. Instead of one predetermined path, you get several possible ways of solving puzzles or quests, while your action will change the outcome of the story and behaviour of NPCs.

Personally, i see the future of adventures not in Telltale games, Still Life or Secret Files, and while they are fun, i see the real future in games like Knights of the old Republic, Mass Effect and The Witcher. Sleeping, developing, waiting for someone to free them and rebirth in a new way.

This is my analysis why they lost popularity, i could be totally wrong but at least im very sure we stand at a turning point for adventures:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/bioware-mature-industry-can-drop-violence-from-games
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 11:50:38 PM by Akusa »
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virtualpsycho

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Re: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2009, 11:51:36 PM »

Cheers that very helpful and good article, keep em comin ::thumbup
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virtualpsycho

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Re: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2009, 04:48:59 AM »

Just an update,

so far I have some members of Cyanide Studios submitting opinions along with some of the development team working on the second title in the witcher games series.

Any other companies want to help out?

All submissions are greatly appreciated, thank you.

 ::rock
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messman

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Re: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2009, 05:07:45 PM »

Well,
I'm not really into business but did researches on this topic some years ago when getting my master degree.
According to what I pointed out, its just as Akusa wrote. Everey technological Ära got its Game. Games like Monkey Island and Indiana Jones came out with VGA-Graphics and IMuse-Sound-Systems - things that moved the computers 20years ago like todays 3D-Graphic-Physics-AI-Stuff - when many PC's didnt hab a soundcard at all. Besides the "Syberia"-Adv no modern Adventure has been broadly appreciated for its presentations in the last 10-15 years. As Hardware evolutes, its needs a killing-Application. The (from 2009's view) old Adv fitted these shoes at the late 80s, but after 3D-Action took over in 1993 the were no longer needed. Does Adv need a DirectX10-3D-Card? Besides that, theres is a missbalance between real sellings and the impact games get in the media. Many people think "Shooter" when they hear Computer Gaming, althought this Genre sells (at least in Germany)  less than 10% off total.
And Technik developed in other ways. Many daytime Games get a lot of Popularity at network-Play. I dont think I'll ever play Tales of Monkey Island on a LAN-Party. Adv an the Internet - when do get together? Can they even - yes they could? Is Adv to stay a lonesome story-experience like reading a book?
Another issue: the glorious games, especially early Lucasarts, were bad and attracive. Wired at a degree most common Adv today wouldn even try - things like putting your pet into the microwave, getting a chainsaw working ... industries changed a lot in the past 25 years from freaky developers to major mainstream companies, the games changed and the players changed, too. The late 80-nerd with his nerdy-humor beeing replaced by housewifes and seniors.
I read the article from the Bioware-guys but dont agree with them. There's no camera-thing to be found. Movieindustry evolved with changes of their media, too: getting sound into cinema, get the camera off and into the crowd - this opened new dimensons. But: the technical foundations of Gaming-Industrie changes more in 1 year than cinema changes in 7 years.

A personal point: I got myself a little bit upset when all Advs started to bring the words into dialogs. Its not the same; I dont care whether  a prominent persons lending voices - the lines loose their magic. I like to read. But not too much. I dont like modern Adv when they all keep talking and talking and telling and yelling and wrting and - this is just boring. It's too much talk but nothing pointed out. Maybe this is only a personal approach. If you like beeing covered in very long Blah-Blahs - I do not. It keeps me away from playing. Its a game, not a book-reader-thing.
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Juan Bonair

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Re: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2009, 11:11:16 PM »

My opinion is based in two completely subjective points:
a) the key factor for quality in art is complexity;
b) adventure games are best and more complex than any other games.

For me, this comes from a debate much older than videogames. The better art is the one that has more information, because it enriches the intelligence of the (in this case) gamers. It makes the gamer a better, more smart and sensitive person. In Literature, for example: no book can change your life, but a guy who reads a lot of (good) books in his life will end up being smarter and his perception of art will be more profound. This happens with Literature, Music, Drama and every form of art you can imagine, of course, even videogames.

The problem begins when the best works of art come to be so complex they require much more complexity from the audience. So, some big beautiful book is so complex most people (who didn't read much in their lives) think it's boring. Some movie is really touching and wonderful, but most people don't understand it. And there is where art divides itself in popular and intellectual.

This doesn't applies to every masterpiece. There are good books which are complex and easy to entertain all kinds of people. There are spectacular movies and games and songs acclaimed by almost every person who saw/played/heard them. But the hollowest works keep getting the attention of not-so-interested-in-art people. Action movies keep getting worst and they're still succeeding. Games with bad storylines and bad dialogues and bad characters keep selling.

As the game industry wants to expand to all ages, it needs less mind-challenging products. People tend to put their money where they can be entertained without the effort of thinking too much.

I don't want to sound too elitist, that's just my opinion.
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messman

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Re: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2009, 07:19:42 AM »

getting better through complex-cultural-stuff is really an old issue but somehow still up to date. The question remains, whether the complexity of an Adv must collapse since there's no market for a real complex game. Many RTS an RPG Games feature a degree of complexity (starting with bounty-hunting in Diablo for example), that Advs kann only dream about.

it's quite interesting to focus game-design on different things than presentation. What me botheres most with "modern" Advs is the usability of 3D-Controls. When Lucasart put out Grim Fandango, I didnt like it not because of 3D - the keyboard-control and the permanent Viewpoint-changes drove me nuts. It was the first Lucasart-Adv I stop the play before finish. So the 4th Monkey Island was therefore annoying, but this time I stayed brave and made it. A point-and-click-control is somehow simple, but effective. On the other hand it leads to things like pixel-hunting und hot-spot-spotting - things that, in my opinon, have less in common with play and shouldn make the heart of it all.
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Juan Bonair

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Re: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2009, 08:57:26 PM »

Oh, and I guess you already know about Ron Gilbert's Why adventure games suck and Old Man Murray's Who killed adventure games. Not very up to date, but still good.

And Messman, even tough I never played it, what you say about Diablo might be right (just don't confuse complex with complicated), and that's probably the reason why that game has captured Ron Gilbert's attention.
And one more thing: Grim Fandango does have some kind of pixel hunting and/or hot spot spotting. It's not an only with point-and-click thing. Love the game, but I have to admit it. Escape from Monkey Island (I need to take it out of my system: horrible, horrible game) solved that problem with the subtitles that showed you what object were you looking at (a solution much more annoying than the problem, in my opinion).
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Spellbreaker

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Re: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2009, 09:02:01 PM »

Diablo is as complex as a slice of Toast. It's a simple hack'n'slash game (nethack anyone? ;) which would never have sold that well without the multiplayer part, which was pretty unique these days in that genre. Only because you can collect thousands of different Items, a Game isn't complex.
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Mnemonic

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Re: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2009, 09:14:19 PM »

and Old Man Murray's Who killed adventure games. Not very up to date, but still good.
I have to say I really hate this article. While it may have a good point, demonstrating this on GK3, the very game that came up with the most complex and original puzzle ever used in an adventure game (Le Serpent Rouge) just seems wrong.
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virtualpsycho

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Re: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2009, 01:41:30 PM »

Sorry for late response, absolutely excellent stuff. Keep em coming.

Thanks alot, I can't believe the traffic this thread is getting with really useful viewpoints;

+(all will referenced to their appropriate owners within research paper).


Uuuh yeah!  O0

NOTE: The deadline for the submission of opinions which will be considered in the research paper is the 4th of August. Upon Completion (7 September) the paper will placed here for the viewing of participants and other adventure gamers/gamers alike. Thank you.  ::thumbup
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 01:53:56 PM by virtualpsycho »
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PotatoCurry

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Re: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2009, 02:05:08 AM »

must also have something to do with "short attention span" & "instant gratification" of the gamer generation these days  :-\

when you play FPS/Action/typical console game you get an instant gratification of what you did right away (shooting/killing bad guys etc..),
whereas on adventure game, you need to do lots of reading & thinking  :P

i know most of my friend really hate game cut-scene, reading story etc, they just want to skip and play the game right away.


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virtualpsycho

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Re: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2009, 12:00:05 PM »

Great stuff, keep 'em comin'

Thanks. ::rock
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mylesblasonato

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Re: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2009, 03:18:29 AM »

Hi there,
I also did research in my Masters Degree regarding game design as a whole with the focus on "how much freedom is too much freedom" as well as "new gamers".
During my studies i looked into some of the classic genres including classic adventures. What i found is that as much as we don't want to believe it, adventure games aren't selling as much as blockbusters from the likes of Epic and EA, the reason for this is because while all the other genre's got bigger budgets the adventure games didn't.
As a designer i look back into the days of Monkey Island and me along with anyone will tell you that MI had some of the best graphics for it's time as well as challenging gameplay which is what the traditional gamers wanted back then. However as time went on and the industry evolved new gamers started to appear, people that have never played games before started to play games and because of this designers decided to cater more to this market to maximise sales. In doing this the designers realised that point and click games were simply to hard for new gamers and therefore focused on games that required less thinking and more action (FPS games).
Another point is the graphics, people will tell you that graphics isn't everything, but to the majority that play games it is. Just take a look at Xbox and 360 game sales. Like i mentioned above, back in the day adventures had the best graphics to offer and today they simply don't. I remember people buying MI and Day of the Tentacle for it's charming artstyle but the fact is that today adventures are near the bottom of the ladder when it comes to graphics. To summarise:

1) Traditional gamers liked challenge, modern day gamers, not so much.
2) Point and Click games had the best graphics, they simply don't anymore.
3) Point and Click games just don't have the budget/backing as other games.

Now when I talk about sales, remember that the industry was once small and so what seemed like a lot of money back then is not anymore so to say that adventure gamers aren't selling as well would be wrong, because they are selling like they did back then which for back then was good but for now not so good because other genres are making more than what they did back then which means that it's grown. Now that's not to say that the genre is dead because it's not as TellTale have proved as well as Qauntic Drea, with their soon to be released Heavy Rain. If you talor the game design/mechanics around the new audience as well as give them great graphics with a big budget then there is no reason why adventure games can't be  as popular as they once were.

Cheers ::beer
Myles Blasonato.
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virtualpsycho

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Re: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2009, 10:31:24 AM »

Thank you Myles b.

Very insightful.

That is the last and final submission that will be taken into consideration for this research project. Much appreciated.

The deadline has no past.
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Kaz

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Re: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2009, 08:05:11 PM »

Wow, who set the question? Is that inherent bias supposed to be an academic approach? :)  Perhaps 'relative decline in mass market appeal' but 'unpopularity'? Try telling that to Big Fish or Her Interactive. The games industry is up 16% on the year before in the middle of a recession and adventures hang on to their 6% share. They're not unpopular, it's just that people of a certain age and gender don't get to hear about them.

This is a market issue, not a player issue. Places to look:

1) The horrendous advances charged by console game manufacturers which force developers to spend millions marketing console games and thus to swamp retail shelves. I could show you a city game outlet with its entire stock of PC games on one rack next to the staff toilets :).

2) Absence of marketing channels. Take a look at the pictures of the editorial staff of any mainstream games magazine. Exclusively young and male. Totally unrepresentative of the gaming demographic, but the magazines dominate the readership with a very, very, narrow agenda. There is no print adventure specialist magazine in the US or UK. Actual average age of gamers is 35 and the gender split is even (NPD). The magazines and retailers do not realise they are ignoring the majority of the potential market.

3) The state of adventure publishers in the US is also worth considering. A number of them have seen their developer lists change dramatically, which begs the question why they can't hold on to their developers. One well known one last year - 42 games, 38 developers - everybody leaves. Why? Small firms, small marketing budgets, possibly tight cash-flow? Or something else?

4) The decline of the PC - popular in the 90's and early 00's with Email and the rise of the Web, the younger generation uses mobiles for those functions and plays games on consoles.

But it's about to turn round. See Steve Ince's excellent article at AdventureGamers. He contends the HOG is in decline and the adventure game will take over. We just need better distribution channels to replace the retail outlet, which fell off a cliff last Christmas.

Cheers

Noel
Arberth Studios
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virtualpsycho

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Re: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2009, 08:12:47 PM »

Cheers Noel.

I am in the process of playing your debut title which is pretty good.

Thanks for contribution.

Much appreciated.

Sean.
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virtualpsycho

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Re: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2009, 02:20:18 PM »

Here is the completed dissertation, thank you all contributors.

Much appreciated.

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mwztoz2mmtk

 ::rock
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Mnemonic

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Re: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2009, 05:32:26 PM »

Umm, you called Jane Jensen an "uninspired developer"? That's blasphemy!
In case you still care, even after finishing the work, I recommend reading this interview with Scott Bilas (Gabriel Knight 3 programmer). Particularly this paragraph:

"There is one that sticks in my mind, though. Jane had a puzzle that we had to kill which was unfortunately replaced with the famous "cat hair mustache" puzzle that the game's producer designed. The gaming site Old Man Murray gave us an award for killing adventure games because of the cat hair puzzle, as I remember. The team hated that puzzle, but we were trying to ship a game, and so we just let it go. Funny to think about it now."


I was wondering, are you an adventure gamer yourself or did you choose this topic just because it's "controversial" and more likely to yield some interesting reactions?
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Akusa

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Re: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2009, 06:58:18 PM »

OK, maybe this is a country barrier but at least i would have used footnotes instead of braces.
It would have increased the readability of your text. But big thumbs up, its a good text :)

@Mnemonic: I think he did not targeted Jane Jensen but all of the development team while i also have to disagree there (its more or less a problem of technology switching with a team that has no experience in 3d and game engine programming).
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virtualpsycho

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Re: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2009, 03:37:44 PM »

@ Mnemonic

I am an adventure gamer through and through. At I started at the age of six for adventure games and seven with first person shooters (21 now). Even though I may have arrived late to the scene to witness their prime, I backtracked myself found out everything I could about and played as many as I could. The whole thing about criticising someone in particular, Akusa has answered that for me. Thank you for interview article, very intriguing.

@ Akusa

I would have used footnotes but the college had a particular format to follow. The format was unalterable according to their guidelines. Thank you for compliment, you know after a while of looking at it, you forget whether you did a decent job or not.


@ ALL

Just to clarify, all the information presented was based upon the readings and responses received. Responses have been added to text in appendices and texts were referenced in both references section and bibliography.

Thank you.

Opinions were not used at all as that would jeopardise the strength of the research.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2009, 03:39:15 PM by virtualpsycho »
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virtualpsycho

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Re: Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2010, 07:39:08 PM »

Thank you to all the participants and contributors for this study once again.....

Just a late and final update.

The final result I received for this study and dissertation individually was 68%. Two percent away from a first. Was very delighted with it, thank you once again.

Take care.
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