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1

Game announcements / Re:My first WME Scene

« on: April 30, 2003, 04:53:52 AM »

Gah... this little board bug is annoying!


Anyway. Could you perhaps post links to those tutorials you mentioned? I'm sure I can do it, I just normally don't have the patience necessary. Maybe tutorials might help...

Thanks.

2

General Discussion / Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?

« on: April 30, 2003, 04:42:20 AM »

I'm a bit ill at the moment, so I'm not exactly sure how legible or accurate my response will be, but I'll try. At least I can breathe out of both nostrils again. And I may say things that have already been said or asked, but I'm out of it...

I have a question for you, Zorro: what exactly is it that you're wanting to create that will/may become worth billions? Even modern games don't really do that well, and they have a larger market than adventure games, let alone amateur adventure games...

Side-note: Communist countries aren't exactly great places to live... Depends on how well it's initiated. I think it usually goes along the lines of trying to make everyone equal means that nobody can be rich, and it's often difficult just to keep your own food... It's complicated. Don't really feel up to reading that article at the moment - I'll do that tomorrow and give a better opinion on it...

Mnemonic: Do you still live in a communist country, out of curiousity?

I really don't see that a percentage is all that bad, really. All businesses do it. Microsoft does it. Sunsoft has, Apple, Yahoo... I'd be surprised if any business hasn't done that sort at one time or another. Even simple retail stores do it constantly.

Retail stores... we'll take a book store, for example. Someone writes a book. They get a publisher, and it's sent through to a whole bunch of bookstores. The bookstores are told "Buying price for you is 15 dollars" (this is for a hard-back, by the way). The author gets maybe 7.50 dollars for each book sold, publisher gets 7.50 as well. However, if it's left at fifteen dollars, the book store gets nothing and can't stay open. So they raise it to whatever the standard is (usually something like $20).

This is similar to the case for what Mnemonic wants. On any computer program development team, there's usually going to be programmers, artists, musicians, writers, and drudge workers, maybe a few other types. He cuts your work in half by removing most of the programming you would have to do. There's still probably some you have to do, but not nearly as much as if he hadn't provided the program.

Now, once the game is all done, they have to send it through to the publisher, who sends it on to the retail store, saying buying price is something like... $30 dollars. Retail store adds on a bit, yadda yadda, same as the book store. Then they send the publishers (or producers, whatever they're called...) their bit, and then the development team gets some money.

Now, since Mnemonic did most of the work for your programming, as well as adding in a few other features (sprite animations, all that...) he is essentially a part of your 'team'. While you may be making the game, he made the program that allows you to make it.

AGS would not allow you to sell it commercially, at least not without some credit or money to them (I'd have to check. I do -not- feel like searching around right now, but I do remember that detail... they may not allow you to sell it commercially at all... don't exactly remember completely.) and I'm fairly certain any other such program would require the same - as does Wintermute.

So. He gets a percentage, just like any development team, because he is essential to the development of your program. Unless you want to figure out how to code it all yourself, or unless I'm wrong about most such programs requiring a fee of -some- sort to sell commercially.

I'll give you a few names to check into, and see whether they're doing something similar - should be in their FAQs. AGS, MAD, and I think others on this thread mentioned more. I can't think of anymore.

It's quite normal for someone who puts two years into their work to desire something out of it.



Oh, another side-note... about Microsoft and DOS... Microsoft didn't design DOS. They bought out the owners/programmers of it, who are probably regretting greatly selling it to them. They were not on Microsoft's team, or salary, beyond the one-time sum of money. I think you can probably look it up... There's a webpage called "History of Microsoft" or something like that.



And my last note: Being sick sucks. Badly.

3

General Discussion / Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?

« on: April 29, 2003, 06:03:42 PM »

I think your argument does have some good points, and I agree with much of it. However, you directly contradicted yourself toward the end - you said "And I welcome Mr. Mnemonic to do just the same: to develop his engine for the sake of it, for the people that would use it (i.e. for us), not for the money it might or might not bring him".

However. This makes no sense at all, considering you are also stating that you may want to sell your own work. That's fine, respectable even. But shouldn't Mnemonic get money if you get money? He's perfectly willing, I believe, to let those who plan to make -no- money off their work (yes, I'm changing it to "work", because of odnorf's point about it not being just a game-making program) by making it freeware, to use his program free of charge.

But the minute money comes into it, it only becomes proper business procedure that he gets a little as well. He does not appear to have any corporate aims whatsoever - those who do have such goals are evident simply -because- they charge $100 dollars straight off. They could care less if you're not going to do anything with it. They sometimes provide 'trials', which are just that. They have some time-limit, or limited features. He's not doing any of that. Free-to-use, percentage-to-sell.

So, if you earn money by using his program to make something else, it's only reasonable he gain money for the continual use of his program. If, by any miracle, you do make a million dollars, it will be because of his program. Advertisements, fans, all that - they have nothing without his program. It's a mutual relationship. Such mutual relationships require benefits on both sides. So, when you start benefitting even more, so does he. Simply because of the fact that while you -may- have created the same program using another base similar to Wintermute, you did not - and I can not say whether it would even be similar, using different programs.

Microsoft was even worse. They bought DOS off a couple of programmers for maybe a few grand (not sure of the figure). Those programmers lost all rights to it. Then along comes the crappy little Windows add-on... And suddenly, it's this huge corporation that's got its grubby little hands in everything. And the little programmers are forgotten.

While this is certainly legal, it's not exactly something that anyone but Microsoft enjoyed for long. However - would Microsoft have gone anywhere without DOS to begin with? I don't know... possibly, but probably not.

It's rather understandable to me that those programmers might be a little disturbed, upset, etc. Possibly wishing they hadn't sold DOS. Perhaps Mnemonic does not wish to have that error.

Money in this kind of venture is extremely complicated, but sometimes it does come up. Obviously. So, perhaps he's making a bad move, but it's actually probably a smart move in the end - I wouldn't want to end up like the makers of DOS either. Left in the dirt, while the people who bought their OS benefitted enormously.

Wouldn't you do something similar? While I also hate even the concept of money, it is a fact of life that is rather... 'difficult' to change. So, to get anything, you have to have these little things called 'dollars'. I wish I could utterly destroy the creators of the concept of money.

I don't know Mnemonics money situation, but if it's anything like mine, he's going to try to get money whereever he can simply to survive. Survival really isn't that great, but... Anyway. In the unlikely event that someone makes a boat-load of money through his program, it's reasonable, understandable, and acceptable to me that Mnemonic gets money as well. You would be nowhere without him, and may even do the same in his situation - he puts hard work into this as well, just as you may put hard work into whatever plans you have. Not exactly easy creating something like Wintermute with any degree of dependancy or success...

So, again, I state: Mnemonic is making this program. You use it. You make money off his program, he gets money for it. Common sense.

4

General Discussion / Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?

« on: April 29, 2003, 04:46:21 PM »

I'm new here, obviously, but I have to side with Mnemonic and the others. If you really plan to make money off your game, it's simple business practice for -somebody- to get a percentage somewhere, and that somebody is probably going to have had a big impact on your 'business'. However, I highly doubt any games made with -any- amateur game creation program will bring in even hextuple digits worth of money. The market for adventure games just isn't that big anymore, and considering the obvious distrust of anything that hasn't got big explosions and guns going off every second...

So, Mnemonic is being very reasonable. Any adventure game created using Wintermute that tried to charge even standard commercial fees would flop immediately. Would you play $50 (US) for King's Quest 2 VGA? Or Hero6? Probably not.

I estimate that the most any -successful- amateur adventure game will go for is probably about $20, tops. Mnemonic could probably just go for a fee of 20% per sale - bringing him about $4 dollars every sale, leaving the game-maker $16. Does that sound at all unreasonable?

Zorro, you seem to have very high expectations for your game, if you're planning in the -billions-. Lemme tell you one thing straight out - there is no way in hell.

Brings a question to my mind - why is everyone assuming that it would be a percentage off the end-profit? That would be unreasonable, considering there would always, on occasion, be a sale somewhere along the line, until the game went 'extinct'. Some of these games that go commercial might not make any money at all.

Of course, Mnemonic could charge more or less of a percentage... still wouldn't be unreasonable. From what I've seen, Wintermute is one of the more flexible game-creation programs, and after only three months, that's quite impressive. If he charged 50% on that same $20 program, he'd only get ten dollars out of it. If that program went on to make 30 sales or so, both the creator and Mnemonic would get 300 dollars, and I -still- doubt he'd want 50%, though it's all up to him.

The problem I see here is not that Mnemonic is being greedy, but people with overly high expectations and a portion of their -own- greed are causing problems that don't even make sense. Mnemonic is making this program. You use it. You make money off his program, he gets money for it. Common sense.