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1

General Discussion / Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?

« on: April 30, 2003, 08:32:40 PM »

== So when I blaming communism, I'm probably actually blaming any kind of propaganda, used by one small group of people to manipulate and oppress the others and to gain as much as possible out of it. ==

I can understand that. But why call it "communism"? Capitalists are much smaller group and manipulate and oppress the others much more (I'm even not talking about personal gains).

2

General Discussion / Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?

« on: April 30, 2003, 08:26:28 PM »

To odnorf:

== Read my posts.. I try to stop this... ==

Then you've chosen a wrong way. If you REALLY want stop something, just STOP. That's all it takes.

== Did I say "Free"? I don't believe that GPL is free (well, BSD is...). ... What I said is GPL is opensource... ==

Read the legalese more attentively. However, in plain English GPL means that you're FREE to do with software whatever you want with a single important exception: you can't appropriate it. That, of course, includes freedom to use it without, well... for free. Actually, you're free even to sell it (even if it was written by somebody else) if you find a person or organization willing to pay for it - there is nothing wrong or contradictory about it: software is still free, but media, packaging, delivery, installation, support - are something that still costs money. One other freedom is to study and modify free software what indeed implies open source but if we're talking about "open source initiative" in itself it means only that - you're given a source code without any freedoms to use it as YOU please. "Open source software" is still copyrighted by its legal owners and can be legally "closed" at any time, never mind that you have no rights to use (copy, distribute, etc.) it without proper license. On the other hand GPL'ed software is "copylefted" what means it's public domain and it (or any part of it) can't be appropriated under any circumstances. In particular that means that any additions, modifications, and products, based on GPL'ed software (see LGPL, though) are AUTOMATICALLY enter public domain and become GPL'ed at the moment of publication. (That's why BG calls GPL a "highly contaminating virus" - it immediately infects everything it touches.)

== No, it's just ironic. ==



== Well, you called mnemonic a capitalist monster that want's to steal you money. Wouldn't you call that political. ==

No, not "monster". And I never spoke about MY money in particular. And not even about "stealing". Actually, if "property is a theft", what's the point of talking about stealing money?

== Download the pacjage and you will find the licence. I can e-mail it to you if you like. ==

Just did. But it says something like "To obtain a different license for commercial use, contact..." Trying. Without any visible success.

== No, I would like to here what you have to say buy, PLEASE, in a personnal message. ==

OK. When I return home.

== OK, do you agree to stop this here. I will ever let you answer last to what I said. What do you think about that? ==

I'm not sure I've understood you. Did you mean "I will Never let you..."?

== Did I say that I don't like you? ==

Well, not directly...

== It seems that politically I really like you, and I'd like you to send me an e-mail to talk further if you like. ==

Will do.

== I just don't like what you are doing here. ==

Just talking. What's wrong about it? No, really, can I repeat it once more? NOBODY IS FORCED TO READ THIS THREAD.

== But you have tried. Isn't that enough? Mnemonic heard your opinions. ==

Yes. And he even expressed his desire to hear different opinions on the subject so what's your problem? It's HIS forum so if he decides the discussion MUST be over he might close this thread, delete it, ban myself, you, or whoever else... As of yourself, you're free to stop reading it if you don't like it.

== Well if you live in cuba ==

Nah...

== The people who where in power said that they were communists but if fact they were facists. ==

You're wrong one way (about Cuba) or another (about the rest of the socialist countries) - they're not that different as Western "left anticommunists" like to believe. This, however, is a large separate topic.

3

General Discussion / Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?

« on: April 30, 2003, 06:26:36 AM »

To ZackDoneo:

== ... that will/may become worth billions? ==

I've absolutely no clue where you've got that strange idea.

== Side-note: Communist countries aren't exactly great places to live... ==

Ever tried? Care to share some bad memories with us?

== Mnemonic: Do you still live in a communist country, out of curiousity? ==

Are you THAT sick? He definitely lives NOT in Cuba.

== I really don't see that a percentage is all that bad, really. All businesses do it. Microsoft does it. ==

I, personally, think it's rather good example of not bad but EXTREMELY bad.

== On any computer program development team, there's usually going to be programmers, artists, musicians, writers, and drudge workers, maybe a few other types. ==

True. Now we're talking some meaningful stuff.

== He cuts your work in half by removing most of the programming you would have to do. ==

But here I lost you. You've just mentioned a whole bunch of people and than saying Mr. Mnemonic did a HALF of a job??? Sorry man, but my math teacher would say that if 10 people spent 2 years developing a game than each one did 10%, not 50%/

== Now, once the game is all done, they have to send it through to the publisher, who sends it on to the retail store... ==

Cool, I agree with you. So let's presume we split it roughly 3 equal parts - developers, publishers, disributors. That brings us to 33% for ALL of developers. Now, if we have something like 10 developers in a team, that makes approximally 3.3% per person. So, what should be Mr. Mnemonic's share? I agree it wouldn't be fair if he got less for his job. But don't ypu think it would be equally unfair if he get MORE? Especially MUCH more. Are we on the same page? If so, let's continue our calculations. Mr. Mnemonic, as you remember, does not, actually, works in a single team but rather services SEVERAL teams at the same time and drows his profits from ALL of them. So to give him an EQUAL share we must divide the regular developer's share by the number of simultaneously working teams. I don't think it would be an exaggeration to presume (when things finaly starts up) there will be at lest 10 teams present. That puts Mr. Mnemonic's FAIR share at 0.33% of the retail price. What is 60 TIMES less than you've suggested. I believe your illness did impact your math skills.

Now, how much would it be in the monetary figures? You've mentioned $30 per copy but that's a price of the top-level adventures. The average price is $20 and it's quite possible we'll have to cope with just $15. What makes Mr. Mnemonics share from 5 to 10 cents per sold copy. Does he agree on such royalties? Let's ask him.

== Microsoft didn't design DOS. ==

Yes, that's kinda a common knowledge.

== They bought out the owners/programmers of it, who are probably regretting greatly selling it to them. ==

I don't think so. DOS, honestly, was not just crap, but a REAL crap. But much more important, by that time IBM alredy has chosen Microsoft so for that guys the alternatives were not to sell DOS to Microsoft for small bucks or to IBM for BIG BUCKS, but to sell it to Microsoft for whatever it was pleased to pay or to sell it to nobody at all. Does it sucks? Of course! But it IS capitalism and it's not me who's defending it here.

4

General Discussion / Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?

« on: April 30, 2003, 01:18:54 AM »

to odnorf:

== Oooo, please, you have said that you don't like the licence a lot of times. Don't you think that one time is enought? ==

Actually, I said it just once. And I do believe it's enogh. But if some people continue and continue to try to convince me I'm wrong, what should I do?

== 1)You said about GPL (don't you?). Isn't that opensource? ==

No, it isn't. It's not just free, it's Free. Gosh, of all men you, with your political views should know what GPL actually means.

== 2)You keep says that mnemonic says "blah...blah..." but what he really thinking was something else... Don't tell me that you aren't guessing. ==

No, I don't. If something's unclear? I ASK. Well, sometimes he doesn't answer, but the refusal to answer is usually an answer in itself.

== 3)And I am not pretecting Mnemonic's (why is this Mr. thing? ==

Well, isn't it just polite to address in such a way a person aiming to become a capitalist?

== You don't call me Mr. ==

And why should I? But if you care, I can address you Cmde.

== I don't call you Mr. ==

Same thing.

== right to become rich. ==

Ahem... A little contradiction with what you told one post later, don't you think?

== 4)Let's not make this political. ==

Did I ever try?

== It doesn't mean than the current licence is bad ==

Well, I still didn't see any licence except "$$$" so what can I say?

== or that Mnemonic is bad and I am good. ==

Just wondering what would happen if... OK, OK, OK, let's not talk politics.

== 5)He said that he is working in this engine for 2 years ... He doesn't worth to earn some money? ==

Did I ever said so? But if you put it anoter way: does he worth to earn millions? - the answer will be: NO. Because NOBODY worth.

== 6)It seems that what you are trying to do... ==

Not at all. As you might noticed, I already retreted from this forum. Now I've got some kind of automatic email inviting me to continue discussion what I did after I read a few new posts. Is it wrong? Am I not allowed to do so? After all, nobody forces you or anybody else reading this particular thread if you're not interested in the subject.

== 7)... We have a small community here that we all like... ==

That much I've understood already: you all like each other and don't like me. But don't worry - I'll survive.

== but I guess until you have created everything you need for your game... ==

That's right - I'm in no hurry, so why not to shop around? May be I even manage to convince Mr. Mnemonic to give up that Mr. thing?

== I don't think that this is the place to talk about politics. ==

Why not? The board description is quite clear: "Feel free to talk about anything and everything in this board."

== You are abusing the forum here ==

But of course, it's YOU who is to decide...

== and you offend people just because... ==

How do I offend people? By calling greed - greed? OK, I'm sorry about that. Next time I'll call it "entrepreneurialism", would it be OK with you?

5

General Discussion / Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?

« on: April 30, 2003, 12:24:42 AM »

To Mr. Mnemonic

== Don't get me wrong. I don't think the current system is perfect. I just don't know of any better at the moment...  ==

I don't. Just don't see any practical difference between "perfect" and "the best around". On the other hand, "I hate it" is more close to "the worst around" in my book and if a person "hates even the concept of money" (s)he, probably hates the systems based solely on that very concept.

6

General Discussion / Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?

« on: April 29, 2003, 11:20:39 PM »

== So, this is what it's all about? You want me to give you the engine for free? And you are wrong, the licencing of the other development tools varies. ==

As you might remember, I already offered to $100. However I would definitely appreciate and highly respect you if you started something  like "GNU adventure engine" project.

== This is just ridiculous. I won't event comment it (*again*). ==

But why? Just tell us where, in your opinion, is a line between small and big money.

== Sure, that would be perfectly fair for you. But shouldn't the engine developer have guarantees too? No, of course not. ==

Why not? You're guaranteed your hundred bucks. It's not enough for you? So how much is enough - that's all I'm asking! But the only thing you've answered so far is, in effect, "anything isn't enough - I want to make as much as possible." Am I wrong? If so, tell us the final figure.

== He just wrote a piece of crappy buggy software, it probably took him no more than two weekends to hack it together ==

I never put it THAT way.

== and now he wants to take our hard earned money. ==

Well, don't you?

== While we are using his product only because we don't have enough money to purchase a commercial grade engine. ==

Sounds defamatory but isn't it true?

== So he can kiss our asses... ==

Of course, you'd prefer other way around... I, however, would prefer nobody kisses nobody's asses.

== Ok, I don't wanna become fithy rich, but I don't wanna become other people's source of cheap (prefferably free) labour neither! ==

Fair enough. So what IS you definition of "not that cheap" labor? How much money you WANT to make with your engine?

== Call me naive, but I thought everyone would benefit from the engine improvements. Well, obviously I was wrong. Silly me. ==

Well, as I already pointed elsewhere it depends. It's not that there are not good engines around. The problem is they're WAY TOO EXPENSIVE. Could it happen, that at some point your improved engine will become so-o damn good that we'll just not be able to use it - we all got pretty tight budgets, you know...

== Great, there's nothing easier! Just make your game freeware and we won't have to deal with the finacial crap at all! Why don't you? ==

I think, I already explained that. Because adventure games are usually rather big (measured in gigs) so downloading them - not an option. Would you consider a "freeware" game that is sold in stores but that specifically states it can be legally copied for free? But even that might be impossible: there is indeed one such game - developed by the Pentagon - but retailes (and game publishes) might don't like somebody else try the same.

== So, what were you trying to say by this post? That I should stop developing WME because I'll never be able to match Microsoft's... ==

Not at all. Quite opposite - I ask you NOT to became Microsoft.

== And a personal note: I've lived about 12 years of my life in a country driven by a communist government. ==

Well, well, well... Now we went political.

He-ey, ZackDoneo-o... Are you listening? It isn't like Mr. Mnemonic is in your shoes at all. It's not sounding like "survival problem" - rather "greedy capitalist wannabe problem."

== That's how I learned that communism simply doesn't work in the real world... ==

I see you were a pretty smart kid: just 12 years old - and so mature conclusions based on the personal experience. I bet you started your studies at age 4 and by 8 already mastered Marx, Keins, Ain Rand and all other thinkers that came before you.

Care to share with us your thoughts?

BTW, talking about commmunism. I've recently found a nice piece on the subject. It's called "The Economics of Star Trek"
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Trek-Marxism.html

7

General Discussion / Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?

« on: April 29, 2003, 10:12:09 PM »

To ondorf:

== In the faq he is saying that... ==

Sure, but it's not what I meant. It's rather opposite.

== What "free software" has to do with "opensource software"? It's two different terms... ==

Who brought the notion "opensource software"? Definitely not me.

== Quote from: Zorro on Today at 06:26:41pm
but instead he decided from the very beginning to aim for the big money. And I do mean BIG. (What. of course, does not imply he will ever succeed - I'd rather bet on the opposite.)
 
I'd like you to "quote" that mnemonic said that. If you can't then you make it up. ==

I believe, I explained myself enough. However, if there are any objections... Let's ask Mr. Mnemonic what HE is considering a "small money" - the upper limit - and than we decide (1) if we agree about what is small and what is big and (2) what the payment plans might be that provides for such kind of profit.

== Quote from: Zorro on Today at 06:26:41pm
Let's examine one of the leading arguments of this thread: the alternatives "free for non-commercial, extremely expensive for (quasi) commercial" and "cheap for everybody".
 
Where did you find this line (except the free for non-commercial part)? Please give me like because I can't fine it anywhere. ==

Where did you learned that quotation marks always mean quotation? You yourself used them to in different context just a few lines above. Anyway, do you have any objections to the MEANING of what I said?

== Quote from: Zorro on Today at 06:26:41pm
Sorry, man, but why should I appreciate your aspirations to become the next Bill Gates?

He said that too I guess....e? ==

Absolutely. The whole point of all this discussion (which I'd prefer to avoid) is "what would happen if somebody gets REALLY rich using this engine." And Mr. Mnemonic's point is (I'm lazy to search but he did say so, albeit in slightly different words): "If somebody became millionaire using my engine I want to become millionaire as well." So I'm asking the question again: why should I appreciate Mr. Mnemonic's aspirations to become filthy rich? You see, it's rather ethical than practical question.

== Quote from: Zorro on Today at 06:26:41pm
(As a matter of fact, I'd rather prefer nobody was rich.)

At least there is one thing that we agree ==

Are we? So why you're protecting Mr. Mnemonic's "right" to become rich? Especially he's obviously not sharing our(?) views on the subject.

== Yeah, very mature... you just cursed a computer program... ==

Do it every day (workday, I mean).

== Quote from: Zorro on Today at 06:26:41pm
we gave him ideas, how to improve it, we advertised his product, etc, etc, etc. There would be NO product without us, so where is OUR share?

I will have a better engine for my games (amateur or commercial). ==

That would cost you more and more and more... every subsequent version.

However, I might say the same about Mr. Mnemonic: he will have more good games to play. How about that?

== We will help him to become rich? You said before that he will never be rich... ==

IF he become rich. Once again, we're not talking about real money, but rather about moral questions surrounding some ephemeral money.

== It seems that have never downloaded the engine 'cause in this case you would know what the engine is capable of. ==

That I answered elsewhere.

== First you accuse him of being professional who only think about money and then now you say that he is an amateur. ==

He is amateur aiming for big money. Not that uncommon situation.

== Quote from: Zorro on Today at 06:26:41pm
develop his engine for the sake of it, for the people that would use it (i.e. for us), not for the money it might or might not bring him.

He is doing that... I am developing an adventure game now without to have to buy an engine. ==

And BG gives away IE. Does that makes him "developing IE for the sake of it?" Sheesh!

== So, when someone argues with you then he "considers you an unworthy potential member"? ==

Not at all. But how could I be sure about you?

== I am creating an adventure game now that it will be free (maybe even opensource). ==

Cool.

== Quote from: Zorro on Today at 06:26:41pm
2. We grant Mr. Mnemonic (and each other) an unlimited rights to play all of our current and future games. For FREE.

3. Mr. Mnemonic grants us an unlimited rights to create games with the current and all future versions of his engine. For FREE.
 
Why should we do that? I someone wants to create a game he is free to do so... even if it's commercial game. ==

Just my proposal. And how you words contradict mine?

8

General Discussion / Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?

« on: April 29, 2003, 09:16:18 PM »

== I don't know Mnemonics money situation, but if it's anything like mine, ==

Well, let's assume, just for argument sake, your situations are identical. So I could speck directly to you...

== he's going to try to get money wherever he can simply to survive. ==

I can understand that but, honestly, what exactly "survival" means in this particular case? Does it includes Champaign and caviar? In a more (in a sense) philosophical way... There were times when mere survival wasn't a problem. So what are you going to do in this life, just survive or try to do something more positive about this fundamental problem?

== This makes no sense at all, considering you are also stating that you may want to sell your own work. ==

Nope. What I said, that I'd probably, HAVE TO sell my work because it's a promising distribution channel. I wouldn't mind (actually, I would encourage that) if people freely distribute it in addition to sales channel. But in this particular case I never told it's wrong to sell the engine WHEN it becomes a commercial product. After all, am I gonna charge people who beta-test my games? No. More likely I'd say them "Thank you very much for all your help!". That doesn't mean they necessary didn't enjoy playing, but the main beneficiary was ME - they helped ME to create a game that now could be sold (if I wish so). Now, what about saying "Thanks!" to those who's beta-testing this engine instead of asking for money? One needs actual games to test the engine not less than game developers need it to produce game. It's ALREADY a mutually beneficial relationship. There might be no games without engine, but what's absolutely sure there would be no viable engine without those who volunteered to test it in real development. It's a big question, who benefits more.

== That's fine, ==

Considering circumstances - yes.

== respectable even. ==

Here we somewhat disagree...

== they charge $100 dollars straight off. They could care less if you're not going to do anything with it. ==

What do YOU care about? OK, they make money. What is fine, as you put it. Do YOU have any other agenda? Just don't mistake different business-models for different agendas. Well, may be you DO have something higher in mind I fail to see so far, then explain, what it might be.

== Microsoft was even worse. ... It's rather understandable to me that those programmers might be a little disturbed, upset, etc. ==

So, now we're going to pity all the programmers in the world... Well, that's OK since I'm of the same kind. But why did you start with those poor guys? After all, I don't think they cashed less than any other programmer working for Microsoft FOR SALARY. As a matter of fact, I believe they've cashed much more - that's if they really were the owners of DOS, not just the same salaried programmers, working for the boss (if the latter is the case, they, probably, were rehired by MS for better salary). But in any case they (or their bosses) failed (in a capitalist meaning) not as programmers but as businessmen and I have absolutely no pity for their kind, whatever happens to them.

== Wouldn't you do something similar? ==

Circumstances... Temptations... It's a question of trusting yourself. Sometimes such trust is betrayed...

== While I also hate even the concept of money... ==

Well, it looks like Mr. Mnemonic strongly disagree with you.

== I wish I could utterly destroy the creators of the concept of money. ==

Now, that's interesting! Can't you elaborate?

9

General Discussion / Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?

« on: April 29, 2003, 06:34:52 PM »

== What we are dealing here is not an "amateur game creation program"... trust me... You can do with WME whatever you see in most big commercial 2D adventure games (except the realtime 3D characters...yet...) ==

Yes, it is. And even not because of the lack of 3D (what is a MUST for today's REAL commercial engine). First of all, commercial engine must be RELIABLE. In other words, it should work. Not just work, but work on all imaginable configurations. What means it should be actually tested with all major sound and video cards, memory sizes, CPUs, Windows versions, etc. under STRESS CONDITIONS. Additionally, it would be desirable if it worked on other platforms, like Apple and all major consoles. Second, from the commercial engine I expect either EXTREME flexibility or WELL DOCUMENTED source code (preferably - both) to be able to do what I REALLY want to do. Third, I expect a full working source of a real or example game that demonstrates all techniques. Fourth, did I mention good, up to date documentation? Fifth, most important, I do NOT expect to find myself dead in the water because Mr. Mnemonic was killed in the car accident or just decided to direct his efforts at something else (as many other amateurs did). What translates into a stable company with several programmers, sizable cash reserve and proven commitment to the product (i.e. it must already invest into it enough money to not abandon it without very good cause). Finally, I expect a REAL technical support.

All this, as you might guess costs money. BIG money. Thus - a high price tag on commercial engines. They might be STARTED in a garage, but to become a commercial product they MUST move into a nice office in a techno park.

10

General Discussion / Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?

« on: April 29, 2003, 06:03:38 PM »

20%!!! You gotta be kidding!  

And since it's a percentage of the PRICE, authors pay all production, packaging, and distribution costs. Plus games are usually developed by SEVERAL persons. All that means Mr. Mnemonic would make MORE money than actual game developers on EVERY game. 20%!!! Even for a commercial engine I consider 5% - from ACTUAL PROFITS - an overkill. What about 1% after $10,000 profit? And even that I'd call a filthy greediness.

11

General Discussion / Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?

« on: April 29, 2003, 05:26:41 PM »

== For me, money just destroys civilization. I just don't like the way companies and individual (like you) treat them like Gods. ==

And I presume, you count myself such yellow-devil-worshipping kind of person as well. Am I right? However, I completely agree with you - I also believe that money destroys civilization and I like those money rascals no more than you.

I also strongly object the notion that it was ME who started this thread. Well, technically speaking it was me, but as OldCoder absolutely correctly pointed out, if not me, it was bound to be started by somebody else. That's because in the essence it was started by no else but Mr. Mnemonic himself with his now infamous "will cost you $$$".

As a matter of fact, I HATE talking about money and I'd prefer not talking about them at all, but did have I chance? All I was trying to do, was to finish with that highly unfortunate topic as soon as possible BEFORE it became REALLY ugly. Could I avoid that? No. Could our wonderful Mr. Mnemonic prevent it? Sure as Heaven - he just had to state, plain and simple (as for virtually all other amateur engines): the stuff is FREE. Period. He might as well GPL his engine (what would be EXTREMELY good for the engine quality and capabilities) and do lots of other good things but instead he decided from the very beginning to aim for the big money. And I do mean BIG. (What. of course, does not imply he will ever succeed - I'd rather bet on the opposite.)

Let's examine one of the leading arguments of this thread: the alternatives "free for non-commercial, extremely expensive for (quasi) commercial" and "cheap for everybody". But WHY a those the ONLY alternatives? Why can't we talk about "free for non-commercial, cheap for everybody else?" I'll tell you why: because this last one promises only SMALL money (also in reality it COULD bring BIG). And that false alternative was set by Mr. Mnemonic himself: "Of course, I can understand this scheme [fixed price] - many people start their games, not many finish them." In other words he's just musing on different ways of making the SAME money - either collect them from everybody or from the few most successful, but he doesn't even consider a possibility of making LESS money. ("The price is 100 bucks but you don't have to pay it until you make that 100 bucks because otherwise it wouldn't be fair.") But not just that, a little later he adds: "The problem is those products are way too expensive for this approach [fixed price for tools] to work. Yep, VC++ is far from cheap, so is Photoshop, 3DS Max, etc. Also, and more importantly, they sell many more units than any game engine ever will." Sorry, man, but why should I appreciate your aspirations to become the next Bill Gates? Yes, those products are way to expensive and, yes, they sell much broader than yours ever will. And that's precisely WHY their owners are "filthy rich" while you will never be. But you know what? It's completely OK with me. I'm not wishing you to become filthy (or even just) rich and I'm not gonna apologize for that. (As a matter of fact, I'd rather prefer nobody was rich.)

Now, that we cleared out the nouveau riche stuff, let's talk about "fairness" business. That's how Mr. Mnemonic sees it: "We share the risk, we share the gain. You can think about it as of the engine developer being a part of your development team." Sounds nice but only until the engine developer IS a member of the team so his work (along with work of other team members) belong to the TEAM. But that's not what Mr. Mnemonic proposes, He wants to share in other people's work, but he insists on his exclusive rights for his own piece which he could sell again and again by becoming "a member" of other teams. Or you can look at it from the different perspective: what would be the ultimate result of this development if everything goes OK and luck will be on Mr. Mnemonic's side? I'll tell you: he will get a commercial-grade engine that he might indeed license for hundreds of thousands (millions, combined) of bucks. Well, good for him. But the question remains: would he be ever there without help of this community of amateur developers? We (I assume a hypothetical case I joined the community and am developing my games using WME) helped him debug his crap, we gave him ideas, how to improve it, we advertised his product, etc, etc, etc. There would be NO product without us, so where is OUR share? Will Mr. Mnemonic to fly to everybody of us to hand a fat suitcase full of money? I seriously doubt that. We will, most likely, remain a bunch of amateurs who in the best case made a couple of grands all together and actually PAID Mr. Mnemonic for the dubious privilege of helping him to become filthy rich. So why should Mr. Mnemonic share in our (hypothetical) personal success that he helped to achieve if he refuses to share with us in his personal success in which we helped him? I see nothing "fair" about it. Nothing at all.

Let's put it strait, folks: we ARE amateurs here, all of us. Including Mr. Mnemonic. If we (game developers) were professionals, developing real (i.e. not quasi) commercial games we wouldn't even consider going with WME, we would go with PROVEN commercial-grade engines that were used in TLJ, Siberia and games like that - we would have money to pay for them upfront and we wouldn't have time to struggle with not fully debugged, lacking functionality engine. Or we would hire a few programmers to develop an engine to our precise specs that would give us en edge over competitors. Likewise, if Mr. Mnemonic was a professional, he wouldn't bother with us, he'd sell his engine to respectable companies that are able to pay a hundred grands up front. But, you know, I kinda like it that way. I do prefer that we create games for GAMES, for the people that would play them, not for the money they might or might not to bring us. And I welcome Mr. Mnemonic to do just the same: to develop his engine for the sake of it, for the people that would use it (i.e. for us), not for the money it might or might not bring him.

You said that money destroy civilization. That's true. At least, they sure destroying this community - well, you might consider OldCoder and myself unworthy potential members, but still, we might become part of it but money matters are preventing that. And I regret that. So I have a practical proposal how we can BE a community and not allow money to interfere into our relations: let's remain AMATEURS, let's not squabble over the monies that most likely will never materialize. In particular, let's agree on this terms:

1. Whatever we're doing here it's not for money but for the enjoyment of doing it. We already have all the gratification we are seeking so we do NOT need any additional "gratification" measured in dollars and cents. Thus:

2. We grant Mr. Mnemonic (and each other) an unlimited rights to play all of our current and future games. For FREE.

3. Mr. Mnemonic grants us an unlimited rights to create games with the current and all future versions of his engine. For FREE.

4. If somebody do become filthy rich - like selling a million copies of the game or finding a company that'd like to license an engine for million bucks, he or she brings us all together (Prague sounds good and appropriate) and serves Champaign with caviar. For FREE.

5. That's it.

12

General Discussion / Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?

« on: March 24, 2003, 04:41:59 AM »

So, the "hobby" turned out to be an enterprise after all. Even before actually proving itself. Well, as I've already said, I wish the best luck to Mr.Mnemonic. As of myself, I'll try something else - just don't feel like fighting his lawyers trying to prove I've sold more than I reported.

13

General Discussion / Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?

« on: March 23, 2003, 10:54:20 AM »

"Fair for everyone..." Well, I know only one such thing and it ain't no licensing scheme... :-)

"$20 *US*..." What??? Canadian buck suddenly became yen? My advise: chane your twenty into quorters, cross the border and change them back.

"Rich people can afford a lot, poorer people can't, and often need those tools in order to achieve something worthwhile. So charge more to rich people." And how he's gonna tell ones from others? Check their bank accounts? No, seriously. If you ask me, I don't think there is a single rish person over here, or will be anytime soon. Rich guys don't mess with amateur engines. However, if you or Mnemonic feel like subsidising poors by taking from richs, why not chose something a lit'l bit more radical than game engine charges?

14

General Discussion / Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?

« on: March 23, 2003, 04:53:07 AM »

C'mon, 20 bucks is 4 meals in McD, don't say you're THAT poor.

Than,  100 bucks sounds reasonable because WME seems to be better than Sludge that costs 50 bucks but worse than 3DGS, that costs 200 bucks - NOT because you or I can or can not pay such sum right away. Besides, ANYBODY can afford that price if it's due only when you go commercial.

Now, about trust. Why should I trust a person that refuses to answer a simple question that is important to me? Even worse, he clearly said that he just don't have time to devise a licensing scheme, what means there WILL BE some pretty complex licensing scheme - you don't need time to just say: "N bucks" and nobody would call it a "licensing scheme". And I don't like it. When Mnemonic himself bought VC++ (or whatever he bought) nobody asked him what he's gonna write, how many programs, what is his potential customers base and how much he's planning to charge for his products. He bought a tool and now it's only HIS busines how to use that tool. If he became multibillionaire using that tool - good for him. Just the same, I'm also buying a tool, I want to pay for it and than it will be only MY business what I do with it, I don't want ANY stinky licensing schemes.

Sure, I know that all MAJOR engines do carry all kinds of licensing schemes but that's exactly why can't afford them. All that companies care about nothing but money, all that licensing schemes designed with one single purpose: to squeeze as much money as possible. If Mnemonic is the same, I'll wish him luck and go somewhere else. On the other hand he did say he's here not for money, so I give him a chance to prove it, but so far his deeds say otherwise than words.

15

General Discussion / Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?

« on: March 22, 2003, 03:57:32 PM »

Sure, lots can be done before chosing an engine so I'm not in a hurry at all. I'm just trying to figure out the budget.

As of vilifying Mnemonic, I'm not vilifying nobody. I asked him a very simple and direct question: the commercial licence price - in the initial message of this thread. But instead of giving me equally stright answer he started that he's not as greedy as I might think. So, what should I think now? I still have no answer.