Wintermute Engine Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mnemonic on September 06, 2004, 06:00:46 PM

Title: 3D characters public test
Post by: Mnemonic on September 06, 2004, 06:00:46 PM
Thread locked.
The discussion continues here: http://forum.dead-code.org/index.php?topic=740





Hello folks,

as some of you know, I've been working hard to re-enable the 3D characters support in WME. Now I need your help to test this functionality on as many hardware configurations as possible.
If you'd like to help, please download a simple demo and answer a few questions, especially the bold ones (post here in this thread).

The demo can be downloaded here: http://dead-code.org/download/demos/3D_demo.zip (1.5MB)

The questions:

1) does the demo run at all?
2) do you see a shadow at character's feet?
3) is the character affected by colored lights?
4) does the demo exhibit any unexpected graphical glitches?
5) what videocard do you use with how much videomemory?
6) what's the approximate FPS (a the upper left corner)?

Please note that the demo is very raw :) You can move the character with mouse and with keyboard.
Thank you for your help!

Screenshot: http://dead-code.org/download/demos/3d_demo.png
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: gfx johnny on September 06, 2004, 06:25:58 PM
Great news... i will try it asap!

Edit:

1) yes, runs fine!  :)
2) no shadow here  >:(
3) yes, affected by all lights (cool!)  :o
4) chair is getting darker when trinity reaches the left edge (top left)
5) radeon 8500, 64 mb
6) ~85 fps

I'll try to find some other old graphic cards of mine, a geforce 2mx 400 and some older ati cards, to test the demo.


I think its awesome - keep up the good work!

Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Nihil on September 06, 2004, 08:27:31 PM
Yeah 8)



1) does the demo run at all?

Yes, it does :-)

2) do you see a shadow at character's feet?

Yes.

3) is the character affected by colored lights?

Yes. (It's getting boring ;-) )

4) does the demo exhibit any unexpected graphical glitches?

Yes and no. The game itself looks fine, but due to the oversize of the background image other applications (in this case Opera) get stretched over to my second monitor. But this happens only during runtime, when I close the game everything wents back to normal, so I think it can be ignored.

5) what videocard do you use with how much videomemory?

Geforce 5600 with 128 MB and nView activated (multi-monitor support)

6) what's the approximate FPS (a the upper left corner)?

Immediately after starting it's around 30, but only for a few seconds, then it rises to ~70 and stays there (with a 1 Ghz Athlon if this is important)

Very good work all in all :-) I hope we see some cool games with 3d-characters soon ;-)
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Jerrot on September 06, 2004, 09:09:58 PM
As mentioned before - great, great, great! The light effects rock!!  8)

1) does the demo run at all?

It doesn't run, it rockZZZZ...  ::rock

2) do you see a shadow at character's feet?

Unfortunately no shadow at all.

3) is the character affected by colored lights?

Yes, at its best.

4) does the demo exhibit any unexpected graphical glitches?

Trinity wears to much clothes, but... no.  >:D

5) what videocard do you use with how much videomemory?

ATI Radeon 9600 (standard edition) with 128MB

6) what's the approximate FPS (a the upper left corner)?

Depends on. In the "normal" default mode I reach up to 290 fps in windowed mode (on a 32 bit desktop), while with the best "let-her-a**-look-like-sugar" quality settings of my card (stuff like 6X Anti-Aliasing, highest mipmap'ing, etc.) which I love to use as often as possible, it still rocks with 160 FPS.

Thanks, oh creator of the Matrix. :)

Mr. J.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Daniel on September 06, 2004, 09:47:54 PM
Hi,

It's been long since I posted here but be assured that I never left, I've just been (and still am) extremely busy working on the story of my game. Who would have thought it'd be so difficult to create a good story for a game... Nevertheless, I kept lurking here all this time on a daily basis (honestly!).

Great news about the 3D characters, I know you've been very busy lately with other stuff as well, among others the Dead City translation and the constant help you give here on the forums. Just wanted to say thank you for the hard work, it's much appreciated.

Now to the issue at hand:

1) does the demo run at all?

Yes, it does.


2) do you see a shadow at character's feet?

No shadows here.


3) is the character affected by colored lights?

Yes, Trinity is getting a reddish and greenish tint when in the red and green areas respectively.


4) does the demo exhibit any unexpected graphical glitches?

- Here too the chair is getting darker when trinity reaches the left and right edges but I think it's part of the scene itself and not a glitch.

- When moving Trinity to the area of the window, it would seem she stands diagonally, as if the floor of the room is spherical.


5) what videocard do you use with how much videomemory?

NVIDIA RIVA TNT2 Model 64/Model 64 Pro + 32.0 MB  :(


6) what's the approximate FPS (a the upper left corner)?

Around 30 FPS when Trinity is on screen and around 60 FPS when not on screen (after taking her to the rightmost edge).


Two further things I'd like to say here:
1. Cool moonwalk, Trinity!
2. Won't Molly get jealous of Trinity?


Please let me know if there are any further tests you'd like me to do on my pitiful machine, I'd be happy to help if needed.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Nihil on September 06, 2004, 10:00:35 PM
6) what's the approximate FPS (a the upper left corner)?

Depends on. In the "normal" default mode I reach up to 290 fps in windowed mode (on a 32 bit desktop), while with the best "let-her-a**-look-like-sugar" quality settings of my card (stuff like 6X Anti-Aliasing, highest mipmap'ing, etc.) which I love to use as often as possible, it still rocks with 160 FPS.

If I put all settings on the highest values I achieve gigantic 20 FPS :-)

I think it's REALLY time for a new PC ;-)
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: McCoy on September 06, 2004, 10:02:06 PM
1) does the demo run at all?
Sure it does!

2) do you see a shadow at character's feet?
No, it seems there's no shadows with Radeon cards :(

3) is the character affected by colored lights?
Yes, that's working :)

4) does the demo exhibit any unexpected graphical glitches?
The chair going dark if you go to the top left of the walkable region as gfx johnny reported.

5) what videocard do you use with how much videomemory?
Radeon 9700 Pro 128mb AGP 4x

6) what's the approximate FPS (a the upper left corner)?
180~ fullscreen ALWAYS, no matter if I have everything activated (6x AA, 16x quality aniso, quality textures & mipmap, and so on), or everything disabled... it always stays at 180~ FPS ???


And well, maybe it's not the right time for questioning, but... are you planning to implement cell-shaded (toon) rendering? :D
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: MMR on September 07, 2004, 01:14:24 PM
Hi all. Here is my little contribution:

1) Yep, it runs very well
2) Nop, I can't see anything (no shadows :()
3) Yep, the character is affected by the different colored lights.
4) If I move the character to the top left corner (a grey triangle), the chair loses some light (it turns grey)
5) I'm using an ATI RADEON 9800 PRO with 128 MB
6) Aprox. 86 FPS in full screen mode with a 32 bits colour depth.

Thanks Mnemonic for this "HUGE" improvement over the Engine ;)
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: McCoy on September 07, 2004, 03:12:50 PM
6) Aprox. 86 FPS in full screen mode with a 32 bits colour depth.

I suppose you have VSync enabled right? Because with that card you should got a lot more FPS...  ::rock
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Mnemonic on September 07, 2004, 03:16:30 PM
Thanks a lot for your testing, guys!

Could any of you Radeon owners please check if you see an artifact at the "window" similar to the following picture when you scroll to the right part of the scene?

http://dead-code.org/misc/artifact.png
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: gfx johnny on September 07, 2004, 05:35:03 PM
Im not sure if i know what you mean by "artifact", but i'm able to see some kind of thing behind the window:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/Hansi666/window.jpg)

Radeon 8500, 64 MB
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: MMR on September 07, 2004, 05:51:55 PM
Quote
Could any of you Radeon owners please check if you see an artifact at the "window" similar to the following picture when you scroll to the right part of the scene?

I see the same as gfx johnny  :D

RADEON 9800 PRO, 128 MB

Quote
I suppose you have VSync enabled right?

Yep
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Mnemonic on September 07, 2004, 06:25:49 PM
Im not sure if i know what you mean by "artifact", but i'm able to see some kind of thing behind the window:

Yes, that's it. Thanks.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Mnemonic on September 07, 2004, 06:56:46 PM
Ok, I'm afraid I'll have to bother you some more. Could you please download and test a modified wme.exe? (just overwrite the old one). It should display a large shadow at the right side of the scene. Also, it generates a file on your disk, which should contain a picture of the shadow. The file is at c:\!shadow.bmp. Please see if this image contains anything or if it's empty.

Second demo (exe only, use the old data): http://dead-code.org/download/demos/3D_demo2.zip

Note: this demo runs considerably slower because it keeps generating the image on disk; that's intentional.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Rocco on September 07, 2004, 07:08:30 PM
hi all,

i have the same behavior and graphiccard as MMR in the first demo.

the second demo: The shadow is on the generated bitmap, but no shadow in the scene-demo.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: gfx johnny on September 07, 2004, 07:38:55 PM
No shadows within the scene, but within the file:

shadow.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/Hansi666/shadow.jpg)

7 fps  ;D
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Mnemonic on September 07, 2004, 08:28:15 PM
Great, thanks, guys. Must be some stupid mistake which nvidia tolerates and ATI doesn't..
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Daniel on September 07, 2004, 08:58:08 PM
I'm not sure if the second demo was intended only for the Radeon owners or not so if it's worth something, with my NVIDIA TNT2 I see the shadow inside the file but not in the scene itself.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Nihil on September 07, 2004, 09:51:29 PM
I still see the shadow inside the game as well as in the bmp. And I have 12 FPS (I should REALLY consider counting FPM ;-) )
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: MMR on September 08, 2004, 01:32:50 AM
SECOND DEMO: Generated file isn't empty. It has a grey shadow over a white background (512x512), but I can't see any shadows in the demo.

43 FPS
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: deadworm222 on September 08, 2004, 11:17:28 AM
1) does the demo run at all?
2) do you see a shadow at character's feet?
3) is the character affected by colored lights?
4) does the demo exhibit any unexpected graphical glitches?
5) what videocard do you use with how much videomemory?
6) what's the approximate FPS (a the upper left corner)?

1) Yes, but it freezes. (I guess.)
2) No, and there's no character either.
3) See above :D
4) No character...
5) Voodoo 3 with 16 MB memory
6) I don't think I ever saw that number.

This was probably entirely useless.  O0 O0
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Mnemonic on September 08, 2004, 11:40:23 AM
I'm afraid the minimum requirement for this functionality will be TNT2. But still... did you have the 3D acceleration enabled? It should at least display *something* on the Voodoo card...
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Mnemonic on September 08, 2004, 11:42:12 AM
I'm not sure if the second demo was intended only for the Radeon owners or not so if it's worth something, with my NVIDIA TNT2 I see the shadow inside the file but not in the scene itself.
Thanks, Daniel. Incidentally I have the same vidocard in my work computer so at least I have some place to test/debug it (providing it's the same problem as with the Radeon cards).
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: deadworm222 on September 08, 2004, 12:20:23 PM
I'm afraid the minimum requirement for this functionality will be TNT2. But still... did you have the 3D acceleration enabled? It should at least display *something* on the Voodoo card...

Yep, it displays a bunch of lines & some background images.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Ben on September 08, 2004, 02:09:27 PM
The answers for my machine at work:

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Yes
4) Not that I could see compared to the screen shot
5) NVIDIA GeForce2 MX 100/200, not sure about the video RAM?
6) 37FPS for 32-bit colour on 256MB P4 1.5GHz
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: odnorf on September 08, 2004, 02:53:35 PM
Yeah!  :o Thanks a lot Mnemonic. Here are my results.

1)Aye
2)Nope
3)Aye
4)The one in the sky that is already reported many time
5)Radeon mobility 9600 64MB
6)370-380FPS with no-antialiasing (it's still high with antialiasing on)

I also tried the second inteprenter and I experience the same behavior as the rest radeon owners. I get the shadow in the image but not in the game.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: HeSh on September 08, 2004, 03:33:45 PM
Here are more answers :

1)Yep.
2)First time i started the game there was the shadow. then i tryed the second version and there was no more shadow. not even in the first version.
3)Yep.
4)No, i don't think so.
5)Radeon 9000 64Mb
6)First version around 200fps and second around 32

I do see the artifact.
The "!shadow.bmp" is all white.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Igorrr on September 08, 2004, 06:24:34 PM
1) does the demo run at all?
Yep.

2) do you see a shadow at character's feet?
Nope.

3) is the character affected by colored lights?
Yep.

4) does the demo exhibit any unexpected graphical glitches?
Many times when I move Trinity around places far away from the chair, the chair seems to be shadowed sometimes.

5) what videocard do you use with how much videomemory?
ATI MOBILITY RadeOn 7500 w. 32MB DDR

6) what's the approximate FPS (a the upper left corner)?
173 fps (32bit)


Note: When I use the keyboard controls I can move the character out of the area.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Mnemonic on September 08, 2004, 06:35:25 PM
Could you give me one more quick test, please?

http://dead-code.org/download/demos/3D_demo3.zip

The character texture is missing, that's ok. I only need to know if the shadow is projected into scene or not. Thanks!
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Rocco on September 08, 2004, 07:47:40 PM
now the shadow works,  ::thumbup
with radeon 9600 pro
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: MMR on September 08, 2004, 08:20:22 PM
Yep, now the shadow is projected over the floor.

RADEON 9800 PRO 128MB  ~87 FPS
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: HeSh on September 08, 2004, 09:29:22 PM
And here too. Shadow is there for RADEON 9000 64Mb

and that object that was visible from the window is not there anymore. is this good or bad? :)
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: MMR on September 08, 2004, 09:58:03 PM
Quote
and that object that was visible from the window is not there anymore

Yep, I can't see it too
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: McCoy on September 08, 2004, 11:32:57 PM
Same here!! Great! (9700 Pro)
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Igorrr on September 09, 2004, 12:24:27 AM
Works here, too!!! (RadeOn Mobility 7500 - 32MB)

Only one thing. Is the shadow meant to be transparent or totally black. Here it's totally black!
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Mnemonic on September 09, 2004, 07:25:08 AM
Thanks again, guys! 8)

Only one thing. Is the shadow meant to be transparent or totally black. Here it's totally black!

Yes, it was supposed to be this time. Just for testing purposes.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: gfx johnny on September 09, 2004, 09:56:27 AM
Same here, shadow is working  :)   (Radeon 8500)
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: odnorf on September 09, 2004, 02:03:22 PM
I'm another happy radeon owner  ;D (Radeon mobility 9600 64MB)
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Mnemonic on September 09, 2004, 06:09:03 PM
And just for the record, here's the version which (hopefully) works on both nvidia and ATI cards. At least on the modern ones. I tested it on TNT2 and the shadow is misplaced. Not yet sure if it's my mistake or the videocard's incapability.

http://dead-code.org/download/demos/3D_demo4.zip (exe only)

Feel free to test if you want :) I'll update the original link too.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: odnorf on September 09, 2004, 06:35:05 PM
it's working fine this time. thanks
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: gfx johnny on September 09, 2004, 07:59:16 PM
Everything is fine now (shadow, no darker chair, no artifact) :)
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Igorrr on September 10, 2004, 12:39:13 AM
GREAT!!! Everything works super fine now  ::rock
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: MMR on September 10, 2004, 01:41:52 AM
Now everything works FINE  ::rock

RADEON 9800 PRO 128 MB  ~87 FPS

I can't see "this" object in the window. Is the demo or is a glitch???. I saw it in previous versions.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/Hansi666/window.jpg)
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Mnemonic on September 10, 2004, 07:17:45 AM
Quote
I can't see "this" object in the window. Is the demo or is a glitch???. I saw it in previous versions
That's ok you can't see it. That's the plane the shadow is projected onto, it's not supposed to be visible.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: MMR on September 10, 2004, 01:09:28 PM
Quote
it's not supposed to be visible

Then everything is Perfect ;)
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: McCoy on September 10, 2004, 03:26:19 PM
Working ok here too with a 9700Pro

But I noticed a bug (I don't know if it's something expected for this level of development): If you load a previously saved game, WME crashes. I don't know if that was happening in the past demo builds, just tested it with the latest, shadow-working one.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Mnemonic on September 10, 2004, 04:30:05 PM
Yes, saving / loading doesn't work yet, I know about it. But thanks for the info :)
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Prisma on September 12, 2004, 07:54:46 AM
Terrific one !!  :) ;)

1) does the demo run at all?

Yes, it does.

2) do you see a shadow at character's feet?

Yes, I do.

3) is the character affected by colored lights?

Yes, it´s affected by all lights.

4) does the demo exhibit any unexpected graphical glitches?

I don´t think so.

5) what videocard do you use, with how much videomemory?

NVIDIA GeoForce2 MX/MX 400 with 128 MB

6) what's the approximate FPS (a the upper left corner)?

It fluctuates a bit, but finally stays at 61 FPS.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Odysee@SomeWhere on September 14, 2004, 07:10:35 PM
Yes! What I have waited for a prerendered-background-with-3D-actors-game-engine that is "free".

So when can we have it? ;-)

Jus want to know if it will be available this year or the next or if it will be not-free?
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Mnemonic on September 14, 2004, 07:33:33 PM
Jus want to know if it will be available this year or the next or if it will be not-free?
If everything goes well, it should be available this year, at least as an "experimental functionality". It will stay free for non-commercial use.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Hobie-wan on September 15, 2004, 02:33:30 AM
 8)
1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) Yes.
4) Unless you count being able to move Trinity outside of bounds with the keyboard, no
5) Nvidia reference GeForceFX 5900 256mb
6) 660

Just wanted you to know this made my whole day.

I can't wait!!
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Odysee@SomeWhere on September 15, 2004, 07:06:24 AM
If everything goes well, it should be available this year, at least as an "experimental functionality". It will stay free for non-commercial use.

Making the .wav(e)!

Need a B-tester? Just let me know.

Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: twk on September 19, 2004, 05:20:58 PM
1) does the demo run at all?----------------------------------------------------- Yes.
2) do you see a shadow at character's feet?------------------------------- Yes, very nice.
3) is the character affected by colored lights?.............................. Er, not sure, there's shadow fluxuation, if that's what you mean.
4) does the demo exhibit any unexpected graphical glitches?......... Other than showing some wirelines, no.
5) what videocard do you use with how much videomemory?........ GEForce 5200FX 128 meg
6) what's the approximate FPS (a the upper left corner)? ............. About 67

PS - what are you using to create the Trinity character, if you mind me asking?  I love the way she's breathing/moving.

Tom
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Mnemonic on September 19, 2004, 05:28:26 PM
PS - what are you using to create the Trinity character, if you mind me asking?  I love the way she's breathing/moving.

I'm not the author of the model. It's orignally a fan-made Half-Life character imported to MilkShape 3D. I think it has been modelled either in 3DS Max or Milkshape.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: twk on September 20, 2004, 02:43:57 AM
Milkshape or 3Dsm?  Cool.  I'm currently looking to use Strata 3d, seems fairly intuitive -- I have Maya, but I don't want to get used to a program that ultimately I'll have to shell out 7k for should I need the license.  Strata 3D is about 700.00 -- 
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Mnemonic on September 20, 2004, 01:14:37 PM
Milkshape or 3Dsm?  Cool.  I'm currently looking to use Strata 3d, seems fairly intuitive -- I have Maya, but I don't want to get used to a program that ultimately I'll have to shell out 7k for should I need the license.  Strata 3D is about 700.00 -- 

Well, from WME's point of view, it doesn't really matter what 3D package you use for modelling the character, but it will *require* Milkshape 3D, because it uses its native format for importing the characters into WME. Although Milkshape isn't free, it's only $25 so hopefully it won't be a problem for anyone.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Hobie-wan on September 20, 2004, 07:56:19 PM
Milkshape3d is great, but you can always use the free Maya/MAX -> Ms3D converters.  Course the animations won't transfer over...  Considerate of you to use Milkshape, Mnemonic.   ;D
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: twk on September 21, 2004, 03:29:19 AM
Thanks Mnemonic, I'll gladly purchase Milkshape.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Arcnor on September 22, 2004, 08:54:21 PM
Hi! I wantyed to try, even knowing my computer (or my card) it's very poor, but... :)

1) does the demo run at all?

Yesss

2) do you see a shadow at character's feet?

I SEE a shadow, but not at his feet :P. You can see it in the screenshot

3) is the character affected by colored lights?

Yes, as it should be

4) does the demo exhibit any unexpected graphical glitches?

Hmmm. It's supposed the 3rd demo to not show any textures? (The first just showed it fine) I don't see it (again, check the SShot). Also, I could walk through the "table", and see through it. And the right corner of the floor has a black triangle

5) what videocard do you use with how much videomemory?

My Videocard it's a Matrox G400 MAX, 32MB  :o. I'm very impressed, because it runs!

6) what's the approximate FPS (a the upper left corner)?

I get ~61, but in the SShot, you'll see 56

The Screenshot (http://www.telefonica.net/web2/arcnor/3DDemo_MatroxG400.jpg)

Does this mean that you could get it running into my old card, mnemonic? (It *almost* run)  It would be great!

P.D : Why WME.EXE is trying to access internet? Every time I run it, ZoneAlarm tell me that WME.exe is trying to acces an ip (my first DNS).
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Mnemonic on September 22, 2004, 09:03:51 PM
Hmmm. It's supposed the 3rd demo to not show any textures? (The first just showed it fine) I don't see it (again, check the SShot).
Yes, the third one was just a quick test. I updated the link in my original post, that's the latest version now.


Also, I could walk through the "table", and see through it. And the right corner of the floor has a black triangle
The keyboard control is for testing purposes only, it will not be possible in the final build, so...it's supposed to work like this in the demo :)


Does this mean that you could get it running into my old card, mnemonic? (It *almost* run)  It would be great!
Well, except the shadow... I'll add a simple shadow for older cards, just a black blob below the character.


P.D : Why WME.EXE is trying to access internet? Every time I run it, ZoneAlarm tell me that WME.exe is trying to acces an ip (my first DNS).
I *think* it's caused by the WHQL certified videocard driver. It connects to microsoft.com. If you let it connect once, it should not do it again.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Arcnor on September 22, 2004, 11:47:35 PM
Why (If it's not hard to explain) can't you put the original shadow in old videocard like mine? I see the right shadow, but displaced :)
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: SBOVIS on September 23, 2004, 02:18:53 PM
hi Mnemonic,


1) does the demo run at all?
YES

2) do you see a shadow at character's feet?
NO

3) is the character affected by colored lights?
YES

4) does the demo exhibit any unexpected graphical glitches?
Only that I can see through the 3D blocks (not sure if that was intended and no background (black))

5) what videocard do you use with how much videomemory?

512 mb of memory running through basic GL card from Intel (work machine)

will try on Radeon 9700 pro at home with 256mb on board. (expect shadows and better lighting)

6) what's the approximate FPS (a the upper left corner)?
A STEADY 42


Good test though not sure how this will be any good implemented in full as 3D characters (low poly) have bad detail and without a 3D world they look super imposed on a 2d backdrop as if floating.

now if you could say incorporate a camera system and a 3D world with all the great WME 2d point and click interface you may be on to something. Player 3rd person camera moving behind 3D character through doorways etc. with 2D inventory etc.


Just a thought


Steve


Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Arcnor on September 23, 2004, 04:27:18 PM
Good test though not sure how this will be any good implemented in full as 3D characters (low poly) have bad detail and without a 3D world they look super imposed on a 2d backdrop as if floating.

now if you could say incorporate a camera system and a 3D world with all the great WME 2d point and click interface you may be on to something. Player 3rd person camera moving behind 3D character through doorways etc. with 2D inventory etc.

super imposed??? floating?? Men, have you ever looked to Syberia????? It's one of the BEST adventure games I've played in a long time, both the graphics and gameplay. And its 3D over 2D backgrounds, and it looks INCREDIBLE. You should take a look at it ;)

If you want 3D characters in a 3D world, you don't have to wait for mnemonic, just try 3D Gamestudio or any other 3D game creation thing. Wintermute it's a 2D engine (and a good damn one :)) and making in it 3D worlds or so would move away from its original intention.

Just a though, too :). Sorry if you don't understand me very well...
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Hobie-wan on September 23, 2004, 08:06:08 PM
The reason 3d characters look superimposed is because of the shadow, which you don't seem to be seeing.  I think you'd be quite impressed with how Mnemonic's demo looks on a GeForce. 

Quote
Good test though not sure how this will be any good implemented in full as 3D characters (low poly) have bad detail and without a 3D world they look super imposed on a 2d backdrop as if floating.

Grim Fandango (http://www.lucasarts.com/products/grim/default.htm)
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: SBOVIS on September 24, 2004, 09:11:27 AM
please do not mis understand me,  I think the idea is good and the test is great, just not sure about mixing 3D and 2D as I have done some research on it and tested the idea about a year ago with 3D gamestudio and most playtesters that saw the demo thought either go fully 3D or go fully 2D as there are issues with miaing these two together. As I expect mnemonic is finding, like the shadow over objects etc, over a wall that get smaller and blurred as the character moves away  and larger and more defined as the character gets closer. Very tricky indeed to do properly. Then there is always the question does this help the gameplay and the game structure?


Great work though Mnemonic long may it continue.


Steve
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: deadworm222 on September 26, 2004, 08:44:34 AM
I tried the #1 demo with my new ATI Radeon 9600 ( ::rock ) and it works except for the shadow.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Mnemonic on September 26, 2004, 09:03:54 AM
I tried the #1 demo with my new ATI Radeon 9600 ( ::rock ) and it works except for the shadow.
Except the shadow? Darn, I thought it worked already on Radeons... Congrats on the upgrade, btw :)
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: deadworm222 on September 26, 2004, 08:44:24 PM
Remember, I only tried the very first version, not the updates.

And thanks!
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: deadworm222 on September 26, 2004, 10:06:23 PM
Aye, man, I tested the latest version ant it workzors. ::rock O0
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: McCoy on September 27, 2004, 01:33:26 AM
Woooha!!  ::rock  O0
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Mnemonic on September 27, 2004, 08:53:01 AM
(I'm starting to think adding those new smilies wasn't such a bright idea ;D)
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Jerrot on September 27, 2004, 11:44:36 AM
(I'm starting to think adding those new smilies wasn't such a bright idea ;D)

Que ?  >:D

 ::hijack
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: MMR on September 27, 2004, 11:49:57 AM
hahahahahaha  ::thumbup  ::beer  O0
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Jeroen on October 23, 2004, 07:39:53 PM
EDIT: Damn. I should have read the other pages. I was looking at an old demo.

1) does the demo run at all?
Yes!

2) do you see a shadow at character's feet?
No

3) is the character affected by colored lights?
Yes!

4) does the demo exhibit any unexpected graphical glitches?

- Is Trinity supposed to not visible when walking behind the gray boxes?
I can see her walk through those boxes (z-ordering problem or it's on purpose, I don't know)
- When walking towards the chair, the chair becomes "dimmed" (full colors dissapear)
Incorrect z-order (Trinity in front of chair)
- Technically: the scrolling does weird things (shakes). Perhaps it has something
to do with the walking path.

5) what videocard do you use with how much videomemory?
ATI Radeon 9700 pro with 128 MB memory. Direct X 9.

6) what's the approximate FPS (a the upper left corner)?
190 FPS
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Orange Brat on October 24, 2004, 08:52:31 AM
Will we be able to control the 3D characters using direct control...keyboard and joystick/gamepad? If not, that is a feature that you might want to consider for the future.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Mnemonic on October 24, 2004, 09:19:35 AM
Will we be able to control the 3D characters using direct control...keyboard and joystick/gamepad? If not, that is a feature that you might want to consider for the future.

Direct control is not planned at the moment, but it should be possible to script keyboard movement, similarly to what Igorrr implemented (http://forum.dead-code.org/index.php?topic=615.0) for 2D charactes.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: metamorphium on October 31, 2004, 05:29:59 PM
The questions:

1) does the demo run at all?
YES
2) do you see a shadow at character's feet?
YES
3) is the character affected by colored lights?
YES
4) does the demo exhibit any unexpected graphical glitches?
NO

5) what videocard do you use with how much videomemory?
nVidia GeForce FX 5600 (128Mb)

6) what's the approximate FPS (a the upper left corner)?
130

Excellent work. Congratulations!
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Lawrence on November 14, 2004, 05:15:11 AM
WOW it's lookin' awesome! This feature is very exciting for 3D hobbyists such as myself. It looks as if wintermute may be well on it's way to overthrowing AGS as the dominant underground adventure game engine. Any idea as to how long it will be before we can make use of it?
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Mnemonic on November 14, 2004, 03:55:43 PM
It looks as if wintermute may be well on it's way to overthrowing AGS as the dominant underground adventure game engine.
Well, the idea is not to overthrow anything :) and I really don't think everybody will suddenly start to use 3D characters. But WME will provide this alternative and some people might find it useful, that's all.


Any idea as to how long it will be before we can make use of it?
It's nearly finished and should be available this month.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: deadworm222 on November 14, 2004, 06:04:58 PM
 ::rock O0
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: slayte on November 14, 2004, 07:15:43 PM
Hello,
I was away for a long time, but i have tried the four demos and the latest works fine (shadow, lights...).
My video card is a Radeon 9500 pro 128M.

And i'm VERY interested by using 3D chars in the wme games because i use Poser to create them.

Like all the time : very good job M. Mnemonic
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Mnemonic on November 14, 2004, 07:28:54 PM
And i'm VERY interested by using 3D chars in the wme games because i use Poser to create them.
Hi again, slayte. I'm afraid Poser models are not suitable for real-time rendering, because they use far too many polygons. It would be terribly slow even on high-end videocards...
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: PrestonD on November 14, 2004, 07:35:25 PM
MODIFIED:   Oops, I just noticed that there were other uploaded demos...I used the base demo to report my results below


Hi,

Very new to Wintermute, but the more I use and experience this system, the more I am extremely impressed.  I downloaded the demo and ran it

1) does the demo run at all?Ans:
Yes

2) do you see a shadow at character's feet?
Ans:
No

3) is the character affected by colored lights?
Ans:
None noticeable, but I did notice some lighting and shadow effects on the character

4) does the demo exhibit any unexpected graphical glitches?
Ans:
None noticed

5) what videocard do you use with how much videomemory?
Ans:
I have a Dell Insprion 1100 (2 GHz Celeron) with 256 meg ram.  The video card is whats on board, and that is reportedly Intel 82845G with 253 Meg physical memory

6) what's the approximate FPS (a the upper left corner)?
Its running at 30-31 FPS while trying to have the actor perform as many activities with screen scrolling.  When the actor is offscreen the framerate goes to about 42 fps.


Thanks for the great work here again with this system....it is the best!

Regards,

Preston D
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: lawrence on November 14, 2004, 11:56:20 PM
Well if it would contribute to the new major hurdle in the community, I am willing to make some basic charcter models (without skins of course, people need to have something creative to do) and distribute them under the GNU public license so that designers have something to start with.


BTW,
Will the characters be able to perform other simple animations for actions such as talking or interacting with objects??
Will I be able to insert 3d models into the world, with animations of their own so can have the character talk to 3d NPCs, open 3d doors, pick up objects, etc.

or I could just wait until it's released and see for myself lol.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: DREAMWEB on November 15, 2004, 01:40:15 AM
3D Characters is  GREAT!! ::rock

1) does the demo run at all?
YES! ;D
2) do you see a shadow at character's feet?
YES!!
3) is the character affected by colored lights?
YES!!
4) does the demo exhibit any unexpected graphical glitches?
No, if the demo haven't a background because I didn't see any
5) what videocard do you use with how much videomemory?
Geforce 2 Ti with 64Mb
6) what's the approximate FPS (a the upper left corner)?
85

The SAVE works but the load NOT, this is the only bug I found (With the EXE number 4)
I hope this option became a reality because is GREAT!!  ::thumbup ::thumbup ::thumbup
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Mnemonic on November 15, 2004, 09:59:43 AM
Quote from: lawrence
Well if it would contribute to the new major hurdle in the community, I am willing to make some basic charcter models (without skins of course, people need to have something creative to do) and distribute them under the GNU public license so that designers have something to start with.
That would be great, definitely. I believe many people would be grateful for that.


Quote from: lawrence
BTW,
Will the characters be able to perform other simple animations for actions such as talking or interacting with objects??
Will I be able to insert 3d models into the world, with animations of their own so can have the character talk to 3d NPCs, open 3d doors, pick up objects, etc.
Yes, you can place 3D models into the scene and they can play animations. It's designed to be similar to currect WME's approach to the 2D characters/objects.

Quote from: DREAMWEB
                   
The SAVE works but the load NOT, this is the only bug I found (With the EXE number 4)
Yes, I know about it. I was waiting with save/load implementation until everything else was in place. Loading now works ok in my working version.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: slayte on November 15, 2004, 10:45:22 AM
Poser models are not suitable for real-time rendering, because they use far too many polygons. It would be terribly slow even on high-end videocards...

Never mind, I could convert the 3D characters. What 3D format will you support ? Wavefront, 3DS or something like VRML ?

EDIT : Wharf... Next time i'll read all the post... Milkshape 3D OK !
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Nihil on November 15, 2004, 11:05:14 AM
But how will you decrease the polycount? Do you have a program for that?

EDIT: just had a look at DAZ3d, the Victoria 3-mesh has 74,510 Polygons :-)
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: slayte on November 15, 2004, 11:13:56 AM
I use Anim8or to create/modify OBJ. I haven't tried yet with a big CR2 (convert in wavefront of course) but i think that with a small Poser 3 model we could obtain some results  :)

EDIT : Yes Vicky 3 isn't the best sample  ;D
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Nihil on November 15, 2004, 11:23:11 AM
I know that Bryce has a built-in polycount-reducer, but as far as I know you can't export meshes from there ... maybe in the next version as it's now a DAZ-product?

But I think you can use the Vicky-model even now, you just have to state a Cray2 as the minimum hardware requirement ;-)
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Lawrence on November 15, 2004, 08:28:46 PM
I'm pretty sure Milkshape 3D, Blender as well as my version of Maya can reduce the number of polys. I hate poser models. I think the better route would be to download Makehuman, a plugin for the free opensource 3D modeling program Blender. http://www.blender.org. and http://www.makehuman.com. You can create those models with fairly low poly counts and then modify them without too much work.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: slayte on November 16, 2004, 10:49:31 AM
Sure with Maya, but it's out of my price !
Maybe Blender is another solution. I don't know the plugin "makehuman" but i'll try it. Thanks for the information.

... And i love poser models, specially Yamato's models  8)
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Lawrence on November 23, 2004, 01:42:37 AM
Poser in a nutshell sucks. It doesn’t really have any options to change the geometry of a figure. So basically poser is about having an extremely large collection of pre-made models which you can IK and position. I would recomend a full 3D app. Poser is the MS Paint of the 3D design world. Use it, and people WILL know you used it, and a lot of them are going to make fun of you for it.

I would suggest getting Maya Personal Learning Edition. http://www.alias.com/eng/products-services/maya/maya_ple/index.shtml It's free and the only drawback is that your renders have a watermark on them. Because if you buy it, you are stuck with it, and Maya is damn expensive and extremely hard to learn.
Yes, I am an elitist prick. Art should not be accesable to all.

 ::hijack

Sorry for hijacking the thread.
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Foggobbler on November 25, 2004, 01:28:33 PM
Hi!

3D in 2D ?! Light effects and shadows? Well, I´ve been looking for an engine that does exactly this for ages!!. I´ve even started to code an engine, but it takes a while to build one and I got a bit frustrated with it. I´m really looking forward to this!  ;D

erm..sorry to ask this again..but.. when will it be released?


Good work!

The questions:

1) does the demo run at all?
YES
2) do you see a shadow at character's feet?
YES
3) is the character affected by colored lights?
YES
4) does the demo exhibit any unexpected graphical glitches?
NO

5) what videocard do you use with how much videomemory?
Mobility Redeon 9000 (Notebook)

6) what's the approximate FPS (a the upper left corner)?
65

Excellent work. Congratulations!
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: odnorf on November 25, 2004, 01:42:03 PM
erm..sorry to ask this again..but.. when will it be released?

Well, I'm obviously NOT Mnemonic  ;) but as far as I know it will be release really soon.  O0
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Foggobbler on November 25, 2004, 06:39:52 PM
well, that´s good news  ::rock

Just a few questions to Mnemonic (or some other guy) :

I´ve mentioned that I also tried creating a 3d in 2d engine. I used the technique of having a simplified mesh "behind" the 2d backdrop to detect if the character was behind things and for collision detection.

How do you project the shadow onto the ground? Is it a stencil shadow? Hope I´m not being to nosy.

Then back to your engine. Will it be possible to have reflecting materials, such for a mirror or puddles, water etc. ?

Thanks,
Oli
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Mnemonic on November 25, 2004, 06:55:03 PM
How do you project the shadow onto the ground? Is it a stencil shadow? Hope I´m not being to nosy.
No, not a stencil shadow, it's a projected shadow mapped onto a plane. If the videocard doesn't support projected textures, the engine falls back to a simple "blob" shadow.


Then back to your engine. Will it be possible to have reflecting materials, such for a mirror or puddles, water etc. ?
No, at least not in this initial release, but of course there will be a lot of space for improvements in the future :)
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Martin on November 26, 2004, 03:40:43 PM
Hi, this is absolutely superb!

Here's my test results:

1. The demo runs perfectly.
2. I see the shadow.
3. Yes, the character is affected by coloured lights.
4. No unexpected graphical issues.
5. GeForce 4 MX 440 64mb ddr.
6. Between 80 and 90, generally 84-86.

This is no doubt the best non-commercial adventure engine. I hope that this great feature is implemented soon, since I started to make a game and I decided that it should be first person, simply because 2D characters are not good enough for nice rendered 3D backgrounds, but now I changed my mind.

Great work!
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: PrestonD on November 27, 2004, 07:03:54 PM
Tried the later demo #4 on my laptop and the colored lights now works and I do now get a shadow although it is quite offset.  Very nice Mnemonic!


1) does the demo run at all?
YES
2) do you see a shadow at character's feet?
YES, but it is offset above and to the right of the character (light source from the lower left?)
3) is the character affected by colored lights?
YES
4) does the demo exhibit any unexpected graphical glitches?
NO

5) what videocard do you use with how much videomemory?
Dell Inspiron 1100 (2 Ghz Celeron) with 256 meg ram and on board Intel graphics chip with 253 meg ram

6) what's the approximate FPS (a the upper left corner)?
Still 31 FPS
Title: Re: 3D characters public test
Post by: Lawrence on November 28, 2004, 12:24:35 AM
Hmm yeah me too. I see a shadow but it's at least 10-15 feet away from trinity. ???