Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

For WME related articles and tutorials visit WME Resource Center.

Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: 3D BGR questions, a couple of them.  (Read 15284 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

nuclear_winter

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Karma: 0
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 49
    • View Profile
3D BGR questions, a couple of them.
« on: January 04, 2005, 10:50:16 AM »

Hi, im new to the Wintermute Engine. I just found it yesterday (thanx to Orange Brat for posting it on another forum).
Honestly i've never been a big fan of this kind of adventure games, but what called my attention was the implementation of 3D characters, which is verry cool :)
From what i've seen so far i like the engine alot!
OK, my question is:
Are there alternate methods of creating the hidden 3D background? The problem is that i dont own or use 3DS MAX, i use MS3D and SILO to model and CFX to animate, but neither of those has the possibility to set a camera and lights!
Is it possible to import the 3DS background model into Wintermute and manipulate the camera from there (rotation, pan, etc)?
Another solution would be to create the lights and camera and import them as geometry similar to the waypoints (the .map exporter for MS3D uses this method), is this possible (or to be implemented)?
You would ask, how (and why) would i create a 3D renderd background if i dont have a high end 3D software, well i thought of using real images (taken with a digital camera and filtered in Photoshop) with the hidden 3D scene. And why not use a hand drawn image (traced over a 3D model in order to keep the perspectives correct) for the BGR. And one last question: Does Wintermute take in consideration the material settings of the MS3D file (i mean illumination, specular, etc... not skin)? I'm asking that to see if a posible fake cell-shading could be applied to the player.

Thanx in advance. Keep up the good work on this excellent engine!
Logged

Orange Brat

  • Regular poster
  • ***
  • Karma: 0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 112
    • View Profile
    • Orange Brat Shenanigans™
Re: 3D BGR questions, a couple of them.
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2005, 11:16:58 AM »

Hey there, nuclear...I'll let Mnemonic answer you, but have you tried using Blender or at least tried to export a file from Silo and get the geometry into Blender? I know that Silo will NOT allow you to export cameras, since you are only given the single one for the active viewport, so you'd have to set some kind of dummy object at the point you'd want a camera(and set it's orientation to the camera you rendered from in Silo) and then replace that dummy block with a camera in Blender. Make sure the camera matches the coordinates and the orientation. You'd probably have to do a similar thing for the lights if you couldn't find a suitable format that would export lights(from Silo). If you were successful with all of this you could then export the collision geometry and the lights and cameras you set in Blender using the WME 3DS exporter. If everything was set correctly then your model's cameras should match the ones from the renders made in Silo.

Quote
Is it possible to import the 3DS background model into Wintermute and manipulate the camera from there (rotation, pan, etc)?

You can manipulate the field of view from WME's SceneEdit, but nothing else at this time.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2005, 11:20:28 AM by Orange Brat »
Logged
The Disenfranchised™ - coming later

Orange Brat

  • Regular poster
  • ***
  • Karma: 0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 112
    • View Profile
    • Orange Brat Shenanigans™
Re: 3D BGR questions, a couple of them.
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2005, 11:28:14 AM »

Quote
Are there alternate methods of creating the hidden 3D background?

Hey there, nuclear...have you tried exporting a file from Silo and bringing it into Blender? I know that Silo will NOT allow you to export cameras, since you are only given the single one for the active viewport, so you'd have to set some kind of dummy block at the same coordinates as each of your render points(and making sure the pan, tilt, roll were the same). Once you have it in Blender, replace the dummy block with a camera and making sure the coordinates and orientation match. You'd probably have to do something similar for the lights, too. From there, you export from Blender using the WME/3DS exporter. If everything went smoothly, your Silo cameras(which you rendered from) and your Blender/WME cameras should match up.

Quote
Is it possible to import the 3DS background model into Wintermute and manipulate the camera from there (rotation, pan, etc)?

You can manipulate the field of view from WME's SceneEdit, but nothing else at this time.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2005, 11:33:19 AM by Orange Brat »
Logged
The Disenfranchised™ - coming later

nuclear_winter

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Karma: 0
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 49
    • View Profile
Re: 3D BGR questions, a couple of them.
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2005, 11:42:28 AM »

Thank you Orange,
and thank you again Orange  :D
I want to avoid blender, i tried it on several ocasions and ended up uninstalling in a couple of hours. I guess i'm too old and dont have the time and brains to learn something so complex... having in mind that my work has little to do with 3D and i have to know alot of other programs :(
Logged

Mnemonic

  • WME developer
  • Administrator
  • Addicted to WME forum
  • *
  • Karma: 41
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 5683
    • View Profile
    • Dead:Code Site
Re: 3D BGR questions, a couple of them.
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2005, 01:36:26 PM »

Hi nuclear_winter,

Orange Brat already answered some parts, but let me summarize it.

Quote
Are there alternate methods of creating the hidden 3D background?
Currently only 3ds format is supported. It seemed to be a good idea at a time since its a generally adopted 3D format, but I didn't realize the limitations when exporting other components than meshes.
The solution would be supporting some other formats as well (VRML hes been mentioned before), but I'm not sure if it helped in this particular case. What exporting posibilities does Silo provide?

Quote
Is it possible to import the 3DS background model into Wintermute and manipulate the camera from there (rotation, pan, etc)?
Another solution would be to create the lights and camera and import them as geometry similar to the waypoints (the .map exporter for MS3D uses this method), is this possible (or to be implemented)?
No. That's something I was trying to avoid and leave it to specialized software packages...
While your suggestion would work for object positions, you'd have to define most parameters "by hand" anyway. It would be possible to implement, but I'm still a little hesitant about turning SceneEdit into a "3D editor" (well, sort of :)), because it wasn't my original intention.

Quote
Does Wintermute take in consideration the material settings of the MS3D file (i mean illumination, specular, etc... not skin)?
Yes, mostly. WME reads ambient, diffuse, specular and emissive color components as well as "shininess" from the MS3D file.
Logged
Yes, I do have a twitter account
Please don't send me technical questions in private messages, use the forum. ::wave

nuclear_winter

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Karma: 0
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 49
    • View Profile
Re: 3D BGR questions, a couple of them.
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2005, 08:22:16 PM »

Thanks alot for the reply Mnemonic.
I have no problem with the 3DS format. SILO can export 3DS, OBJ and more with no problem, MS3D imports and exports almost all formats. The problem is that i can not create or set cameras or lights in SILO nor MS3D... so the limitation lies within the modelling programs themselves. Thats why i was aking for the possibility to adjust the 3D frames in the scene editor, but i understand your intentions and in no way want to interfere with it :)
Is there a possibility to create the 3D scene and set geometric shapes which by their names be interpreted as light_1, camera_1, etc. (similar to the way the waypoints work)?

Thanks again.
Logged

Mnemonic

  • WME developer
  • Administrator
  • Addicted to WME forum
  • *
  • Karma: 41
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 5683
    • View Profile
    • Dead:Code Site
Re: 3D BGR questions, a couple of them.
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2005, 02:54:55 PM »

Is there a possibility to create the 3D scene and set geometric shapes which by their names be interpreted as light_1, camera_1, etc. (similar to the way the waypoints work)?
Well, I guess it *would* be possible. What would we need?

- two cubes to represent camera and its target + we'd need to specify FOV externally (already possible in SceneEdit)
- one cube for omni light + externally specified color (and possibly range, but it's not used at the moment)
- two cubes for a spotlight and its target + color

Did I forget anything? Ok, that should be relatively easy for me to program, but desiging the scene would be rather complicated, I think.
Logged
Yes, I do have a twitter account
Please don't send me technical questions in private messages, use the forum. ::wave

Jerrot

  • Global Moderator
  • Addicted to WME forum
  • *
  • Karma: 0
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 690
    • View Profile
Re: 3D BGR questions, a couple of them.
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2005, 03:24:53 PM »

Cool idea actually...
Logged
Mooh!

nuclear_winter

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Karma: 0
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 49
    • View Profile
Re: 3D BGR questions, a couple of them.
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2005, 09:26:42 PM »

- two cubes to represent camera and its target + we'd need to specify FOV externally (already possible in SceneEdit)
- one cube for omni light + externally specified color (and possibly range, but it's not used at the moment)
- two cubes for a spotlight and its target + color

That would be very cool!! I think this would give new possibilities to people without high-end 3D programs.
When its released, i'll try to create a scene or two (alot of ideas already :) ) and inform of my progress and any interesting issues.

Thanx alot for your quick response Mnemonic and for the will to look into these ideas!
I think people would benefit from such addition! (also, people new to this type of adventure games, like me)

10X
« Last Edit: January 05, 2005, 09:31:10 PM by nuclear_winter »
Logged

Orange Brat

  • Regular poster
  • ***
  • Karma: 0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 112
    • View Profile
    • Orange Brat Shenanigans™
Re: 3D BGR questions, a couple of them.
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2005, 07:45:19 AM »

This sounds like a plausible solution and better than what I had proposed in the 3D SceneEdit thread, but it could also tie into it, too.

We create out master mesh, invisible mesh, and proxy blocks(waypoints, lights, cameras) in a 3rd party editor. When loaded into SceneEdit, it will substitute cams and lights in place of these proxy elements and use whatever values are included in the external file that Mnemonic mentioned. We then export the master mesh, lights, and cameras out to a format that can be used by a specialed rendering app like POV and make our renders there. We also save out the special 3DS file containing the invisible mesh(by using a yet to be created "export selected" option or only saving out elements with the special prefix names like "blk", "walk", etc), waypoints, lights, and cameras and the engine uses this.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2005, 03:25:23 AM by Orange Brat »
Logged
The Disenfranchised™ - coming later

gfx johnny

  • Regular poster
  • ***
  • Karma: 0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 142
    • View Profile
Re: 3D BGR questions, a couple of them.
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2005, 08:20:13 PM »

Hope you don't mind asking my question here.

What about the 3d hidden geometry, how much polygons are allowed? I know it's faster to have a low poly count, but what about a nature scene with lots of complex hills the character can walk behind and such? I don't want to create a simpler object for all of them. What about 1000 Polygons, too much?
How to create your scene in general, what would be a good workflow, any hints? Start with a lowpoly object, export for wme, and then divide and model details?

Sadly the original 3ds max file attached to the dev kit was saved in 3dsmax 6 or higher - i'm not able to open it because of the mental ray plugins missing  :-\ Any chance for a lower version file?
Logged

Mnemonic

  • WME developer
  • Administrator
  • Addicted to WME forum
  • *
  • Karma: 41
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 5683
    • View Profile
    • Dead:Code Site
Re: 3D BGR questions, a couple of them.
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2005, 12:05:46 PM »

This sounds like a plausible solution and better than what I had proposed in the 3D SceneEdit thread, but it could also tie into it, too.

We create out master mesh, invisible mesh, and proxy blocks(waypoints, lights, cameras) in a 3rd party editor. When loaded into SceneEdit, it will substitute cams and lights in place of these proxy elements and use whatever values are included in the external file that Mnemonic mentioned. We then export the master mesh, lights, and cameras out to a format that can be used by a specialed rendering app like POV and make our renders there. We also save out the special 3DS file containing the invisible mesh(by using a yet to be created "export selected" option or only saving out elements with the special prefix names like "blk", "walk", etc), waypoints, lights, and cameras and the engine uses this.
You mean the scene would be re-exported from WME after the palceholder objects are replaced?
In nuclear_winter's case rendering isn't an issue, since he intends to use photos for backgrounds, but you are right it would be nice to have some generic solution...
I still think designing the scene using the placeholders wouldn't be easy, though. I can imagine creating lights that way, but setting cameras this way? Ow ow..
Logged
Yes, I do have a twitter account
Please don't send me technical questions in private messages, use the forum. ::wave

Mnemonic

  • WME developer
  • Administrator
  • Addicted to WME forum
  • *
  • Karma: 41
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 5683
    • View Profile
    • Dead:Code Site
Re: 3D BGR questions, a couple of them.
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2005, 12:39:15 PM »

What about the 3d hidden geometry, how much polygons are allowed? I know it's faster to have a low poly count, but what about a nature scene with lots of complex hills the character can walk behind and such? I don't want to create a simpler object for all of them. What about 1000 Polygons, too much?
I didn't do any stress-testing, but I think 1000 polys should be fine... The number of polygons in hidden geometry will mostly affect path-finding speed only.


How to create your scene in general, what would be a good workflow, any hints? Start with a lowpoly object, export for wme, and then divide and model details?
I'd definitely start with the detailed model and only added the simplified geometry after the scene is finished. Somehow I can't imagine how you'd create the simplified geometry first and then tried to fill it with a more detailed model... But I guess it's a matter of personal preferencies.


Sadly the original 3ds max file attached to the dev kit was saved in 3dsmax 6 or higher - i'm not able to open it because of the mental ray plugins missing  :-\ Any chance for a lower version file?
I can export the entire scene to 3ds if you want. But there's nothing special about it anyway. It's a normal detailed 3D scene, with a few simple meshes added, encapsulating some of the detailed objects (the warehouse, crates etc.).
Logged
Yes, I do have a twitter account
Please don't send me technical questions in private messages, use the forum. ::wave

gfx johnny

  • Regular poster
  • ***
  • Karma: 0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 142
    • View Profile
Re: 3D BGR questions, a couple of them.
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2005, 01:50:30 PM »

Thanks for answering, i think i will try to create some scenes and if i manage it on my own, there is no need for the 3ds file. I thought the file had some special things i could learn from. Oh man i'm so exciting about the new features  :D
Logged

Orange Brat

  • Regular poster
  • ***
  • Karma: 0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 112
    • View Profile
    • Orange Brat Shenanigans™
Re: 3D BGR questions, a couple of them.
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2005, 01:00:44 AM »

Quote
You mean the scene would be re-exported from WME after the palceholder objects are replaced?
In nuclear_winter's case rendering isn't an issue, since he intends to use photos for backgrounds, but you are right it would be nice to have some generic solution...
I still think designing the scene using the placeholders wouldn't be easy, though. I can imagine creating lights that way, but setting cameras this way? Ow ow..

Yeah, it would be reexported to two different formats...the rendering file and the 3DS file that the engine uses. The 3DS file would only contain the hidden geometry(which was already created in a 3rd party app) and the lights and cameras that were placed by Sceneedit based on the placeholders. The rendering file is the detailed geometry, lights and cameras.

Instead of using two placeholders for the camera, why not just one? It would be up to the user to set the orientation(pan, tilt, roll) of the camera placeholder in the 3rd party app and all you would have to do is sub in a real camera that was set to the same values as the placeholder's.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2005, 01:42:14 AM by Orange Brat »
Logged
The Disenfranchised™ - coming later
Pages: [1] 2  All
 

Page created in 0.024 seconds with 21 queries.