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[gfx johnny]

Hi Wintermuties

Im doing some graphic tests at the moment to find a nice style for an adventure game. At first, i wanted to create something like Dott,  some kind of comic-style. But right now, i dont now what way to go, so i need some help, your help

If you would be so kind, please take a look at these pictures:

Some of you may know this already (its the same i showed in the channel), its a more realistic approach:
Pic 1

Some of you suggested to try out cel shading, i did that before, but i gave it another try; this one has lots of mistakes, but shows a combination of comic and realism:
Pic 2

At last i tried to create some classic comic look:
Pic 3

So what do you think about it? Which way to go? Perhaps quite a different one? I guess it depends on the game, the setting. But what do you prefer generally?


Furthermore im interested in your overall opinion about adventure graphics.

Which graphic style do you like the most?


Thx for your time!

[McCoy]

Well, to be honest, I always preferred full 2D, hand-drawed graphics for graphic adventures. I think that Runaway is the best example of this kind of graphics, very well achieved. But, I think that the backgrounds must be same than characters, so, if you're going to use 3D characters, then I think you should use a more realisting 3D rendering rather than toon like and all that. Continuing with Runaway, I never thought its cell-shaded characters made in 3D fitted with the awesome 2D hand-drawed graphics. Something like the charactes of Monkey Island 3 would have done WAY better, just my opinion of course.

So, that said, my favourite one is toon01.jpg, followed by toon02.jpg, and maybe I'd prefer toon02.jpg if it finally gets better (yes, I know it's not a well-worked scene, just a test, so that's what I'm saying), BUT, if you're going to use 3D prerendered characters... I'd stick to r01.jpg. That's my opinion, hope it helps .

Anyway, no matter what you choose, PLEASE DON'T GIVE UP! 

[gfx johnny]

Thx for your comment

I want to use prerendered 3d characters. But they can look the same as the cel shaded 3d background (after all, its all just geometry), so i guess it would fit in there, too. I will have to test a little bit further. Perhaps im not able to create fitting toon characters, then i will follow your suggestion and go with the realistic way. Perhaps i will drop 3d entirely and try to draw a screne I cant draw that good, but im used to graphic apps like photoshop etc.   

I must admit i didnt play runaway yet. Its looks great, but the characters in there seems to be drawn, not toon shaded? Im confused... well, i guess i must see it in action  

EDIT: examined the runaway screenshots and found 3d models of the characters   but i'd say they just look great and fit in there... though you have a different opinion


     

[FinnishBoy]

Well, I prefer 3d, but old good 2d-graphics are of course more classical. I'm currently using funny-styled 3d in my project and I think my next project will be also in 3d, but with more realistic style. Beauty is in the watcher's eyes, I say

[Jerrot]

Uh, somehow I missed the thread.
The links aren't working anymore though. 

[McCoy]

They still work for me... and no, they're not in the cache, I can see them slowly-loading with my wonderful 56k connection 

[gfx johnny]

Yep, same here, still working... hmm.   

[Mnemonic]

It didn't work in the morning, I tried that too.
And btw I think the third picture is most "cartoony", I like it. Number 2 is kinda too rough for my taste. Of course it's given by the geometry mostly, but still...

[Jerrot]

Ah, ok, they work now.

So... in reverse order.
Number 3 is good from style and shading for a comic style, but I can't judge it too much more because that green bites my eyes in a way I can't stare on the monitor too long.
Number 2... is IMHO a great style, I wouldn't think its cel shading. The edges are somewhat broken (but you wrote about mistakes in it), what disturbs me here is the clean and structured wallpaper texture.
Number 1 is still my favorite, anyway I'd love to see this picture again with a little less shinyness/reflection of the wood parts, especially of the room edges. If those reflections weren't there, I'd not be sure if it's 3D or not - which is - again IMHO - perfect.

Glad to see new art here. Go on, go on! 

[Nihil]

I like the first and third most, though I agree with Jerrot, the green produces Eye-cancer :-) With another colour no. 3 would be perfect.
No 2 is not my cup of tea as I'm no fan of cell-shading at all.

But a question - as all the scenes have a strong comic-style, wouldn't it be way easier to draw them by hand and colour them with a graphic program then to model them in 3d?

And what style I love most in general depends on the game itself: for comedy adventures comic-style is just perfect, but for "serious" games I prefer 3d-graphics.

[gfx johnny]

Well, the host of the pictures seems to be offline sometimes, sorry guys.   

Thx Jerrot! I always thought, hmm something is strange looking... and indeed, it was the specular level of the wood  And lol, it wasn't only the wood.. everything had a high specular level... i forgot to change it in _every_ material   But only the wood looked suspicious

The green colour of picture 3 is just a placeholder... i don't think its so bad, but i guess after all i'm the only person of that opinion, huh? Ok, please ignore the colour as long as you can *g*, its just about the style.

I like the first and third most [...] No 2 is not my cup of tea as I'm no fan of cell-shading at all.

I would say picture number 3 is also cell-shaded, hmm. But i guess its looking more like a cartoon, so this style seems to be ok for you.

But a question - as all the scenes have a strong comic-style, wouldn't it be way easier to draw them by hand and colour them with a graphic program then to model them in 3d?

I would say picture number 1 is not necessarily associated with a comic-style. I created the textures with that in mind, so the wood for example is not that realistic. And i used just one colour for floor & ceiling, so this may be a reason to think so. But i suppose its not that easy to create this in a graphics app. At least, the style would differ. But on the other side, Jerrot eventually thinks you couldnt recognise the 3d-heritage, so maybe im used to my 3d-pics and am a little bit blind about them Thats why i need your feedback  
By comparison, picture 3 is very easy to do without using 3d, sure. It would be easier, too.

The main reason for me using 3d: im lacking skill in drawing And im used to work with 3d apps for a long time, several years. There are other benefits, too. You can reuse lots of elements in other scenes, you can change perspective within a second, change materials on the fly, change screen resolution fast, not even to think about character animation. Of course you need some time to create it in the first place.

And what style I love most in general depends on the game itself: for comedy adventures comic-style is just perfect, but for "serious" games I prefer 3d-graphics.

Thats comprehensible. So you wouldnt say picture 1 is realistic enough for a serious adventure? It had to be more photo-realistic? I think it would be not too difficult to change that, perhaps other materials, bump maps and so on.


Here is picture number 1 with better specular settings (beware, its 1024x768).



Thx all for your comments btw - its appreciated! 
   

[Nihil]

The green colour of picture 3 is just a placeholder... i don't think its so bad, but i guess after all i'm the only person of that opinion, huh? Ok, please ignore the colour as long as you can *g*, its just about the style.

I just put on my sun-glasses and -tada- no problem anymore ;-)

I would say picture number 3 is also cell-shaded, hmm. But i guess its looking more like a cartoon, so this style seems to be ok for you.

Yes, I wasn't clear about that point - I mean the cell-shading where still can see it's 3d ... No. 3 looks like "real" 2d in 3d ... if anyone knows what I mean 

I would say picture number 1 is not necessarily associated with a comic-style.

Not the textures, I meant the geometry - thats very comic-like, at least for me.

The main reason for me using 3d: im lacking skill in drawing

That sounds familar to me :-)

[qoute]
And im used to work with 3d apps for a long time, several years. There are other benefits, too. You can reuse lots of elements in other scenes, you can change perspective within a second, change materials on the fly, change screen resolution fast, not even to think about character animation. Of course you need some time to create it in the first place.

Ok, thats a good argument.

Thats comprehensible. So you wouldnt say picture 1 is realistic enough for a serious adventure? It had to be more photo-realistic? I think it would be not too difficult to change that, perhaps other materials, bump maps and so on.

As written above, it's mainly the geometry, not the textures - it looks a bit more comic-like, the round walls and stuff. (btw, with serious I don't mean good enough, commercial quality or something like this, I'm just regarding to the story)

[FinnishBoy]

If I would be you, I would use number 1. I like 3d

[gfx johnny]

I just put on my sun-glasses and -tada- no problem anymore ;-)

ROFL!  I hope no one has to use sunglasses to play my adventure   

Not the textures, I meant the geometry - thats very comic-like, at least for me. [...]
btw, with serious I don't mean good enough, commercial quality or something like this, I'm just regarding to the story)

I caught it this way
I tried to mimic some elements of comics and well known games like Dott. Im not sure, though if i want to create a funny comic adventure or something more serious. Im playing around with the idea of making something more serious. Do you think i should avoid this style of geometry when making an unsmiling/serious adventure? Ok, picture 1 looks like some kind of tree house *g* instead of a classic room. But what about some small adjustments?

I think at the moment i'll use 3d graphics with classic geometry and not so realistic textures, plus cell-shaded characters perhaps. Or just classic 3d characters, im not sure yet...   

[Nihil]

I caught it this way
 Do you think i should avoid this style of geometry when making an unsmiling/serious adventure? Ok, picture 1 looks like some kind of tree house *g* instead of a classic room. But what about some small adjustments?

Well, at least I would avaiod it, I think. A bit "unusual" geometry :-) should be ok to get some unique style, but I wouldn't use too much for a serious game. But that's only my oppinion, don't know what the average gamer thinks about it ... normally, my taste isn't very common at all 

In the end you should use the style that you self prefer most ... I think thats more important than trying to match everyones taste which isn't possible either. And if you work in a style you are not really satisfied with it will probably loose the interest in your own game :-)

[gfx johnny]

In the end you should use the style that you self prefer most ... I think thats more important than trying to match everyones taste which isn't possible either. And if you work in a style you are not really satisfied with it will probably loose the interest in your own game :-)

A good point, i didnt think about this one. Although i want the game to please the crowd Well, i'll spend some time working on story, riddles etc., and then i'll create some of the first locations as good as i can. I will show you when im finished with this

Thx everyone for your opinion!

[Jerrot]

Hey Johnny!

Thx Jerrot! I always thought, hmm something is strange looking... and indeed, it was the specular level of the wood

[gfx johnny]

Now with a great part of story and riddles finished, i wanted to go on with my graphic tests


I did a test scene once again and tried to play around with blend modes and blur to get rid of that annoying 3d look of my pics.

This is the 3d base picture.

The scene is just very basic, only some core elements to minimize render time. You may wonder about the weird shadows - imagine its dark outside and there are two torches on the first and third colum from the left 

And this is the same picture after some post editing.

I'm very pleased with this result, even though its not perfect. It looks a little bit like a drawn picture imho. I could imagine this look for my adventure, i think...


Come along with gfx johnny as he continues his quest for the ultimate graphic style 

[Jerrot]

Hey johnny,

good to see you working.
Now, this is an interesting approach. Let's see...

I did a test scene once again and tried to play around with blend modes and blur to get rid of that annoying 3d look of my pics.

In my opinion, it works quite good partially, but not for the whole scene. Actually I like your renders, but some parts look to smooth for my eyes. The cave for example - there are no sharp edges at all, I assume you use some kind of NURBS for your objects, which makes them kind of organic.

Anyway - that's not what you asked for. Your post-processing works IMHO very fine for the stone plate, it looks more detailled, as if there were some smaller stones or dust on it, details you couldn't analyze from that distance, that's quite real and doesn't look rendered at all.

The whole picture looks more "Indiana Jones like" now, I guess it's the blurring of the scene, which looks good this way. What still disturbs me a little are the walls in the background - but maybe that's a web developer illness - they look like a low compressed JPEG now. The fragmentation is fine though, it just could need some more detail/structure now. Maybe some partial emboss filters might help.

Don't take me too serious though, it looks fine after all and I never did a scene like that myself (yet ), so those are just "a player's" thoughts. If you didn't ask, I'd not concentrated on these things for sure.

[gfx johnny]

Thx for your answer Jerrot, your opinion (and of course anyone's  ) is appreciated I post because i want to have feedback, a nudge in the right direction

I didn't use Nurbs, i created the base mesh in wings3d and smoothed it; you are right, it looks too organic, not like some kind of mountain - need to model it better.

About the stoneplate and the mountain - exactly my thoughts. I did make the picture a little bit brighter, because looking at it with a white browser background, it was difficult to see details. The original was darker, to hide the mountain in the background Regarding the  fragmention, i guess it's a lighting problem; Look here, on the left side the bump map is washed out by the lights i think, the right part of the mountain has a better structure. The left part looks very very badly... need to check this, because it is just one bump map, should look similar. 

A quick solution would be merging good looking parts together; i just put one on the other and used the rubber to erase not wanted parts: quick test. So i could do several render passes and combine them (just have to be careful to maintain continuity).

More experiments on their way...

[Nihil]

I like it very much so far, just some minor issues:

- as you have noticed yourself, the left and right part of the mountan do not really fit

- the sky needs some work, clouds or so

- and I think it would look better if the plateau would reach the caves entrance. Now it looks a bit like ... well, as if it shouldn't be there really, if anyone understands what I mean ;-)

But overall I like the style very much. What kind of game will it be finally?

[gfx johnny]

Thx for your points, Nihil The background ist without details in this test, so someday there will be more in a final version (for example, clouds or a sky). The ground is just a brown plane at the moment  You are right about the transition between cave and stone; i have some ideas for a better version (some more of a stone temple worked into the mountain). We'll see

I think i must create more details and think more about the significance of shapes (i read the "tiller techniques" on adventuredevelopers^^). I guess i have to learn lots of things regarding art for games (although this adventure won't be my first finished project).


The game will be a classic adventure with a focus on story and riddles. It's about a dystopian setting using the genre of post-apocalyptic science fiction (much to my regret i found out that there are already lots of novels about similar themes  but i'll stay with my "own" ideas ). I guess its some kind of soft sci-fi, because technology won't play a big role (ok, it will play a big role, but not as you would guess, no phaser weapons, no starships and so on). I guess it's difficult to explain without giving too much away... the player will reveal important facts about the setting while playing the game (including a surprise), so i don't want to spoil the fun.


btw: i'm waiting for your screenshots 

[Nihil]

Thx for your points, Nihil The background ist without details in this test, so someday there will be more in a final version (for example, clouds or a sky). The ground is just a brown plane at the moment  You are right about the transition between cave and stone; i have some ideas for a better version (some more of a stone temple worked into the mountain). We'll see

Yes, stone temple sounds good :-)

I think i must create more details and think more about the significance of shapes (i read the "tiller techniques" on adventuredevelopers^^). I guess i have to learn lots of things regarding art for games (although this adventure won't be my first finished project).

Adding details is the part I hate most on creating new scenes :-) Everything else goes on fast and you have quick results, but when it comes to the details the tiniest bit takes forever to create ... unfortunately they are necessary to make scenes look good ;-)

The game will be a classic adventure with a focus on story and riddles. It's about a dystopian setting using the genre of post-apocalyptic science fiction (much to my regret i found out that there are already lots of novels about similar themes  but i'll stay with my "own" ideas ). I guess its some kind of soft sci-fi, because technology won't play a big role (ok, it will play a big role, but not as you would guess, no phaser weapons, no starships and so on). I guess it's difficult to explain without giving too much away... the player will reveal important facts about the setting while playing the game (including a surprise), so i don't want to spoil the fun.

The sounds VERY interesting, even more as we have some hardcore SciFi/Cyberpunk-Fans here, including me ;-)
Dystopian setting rings a bell here, I have written the story for a cyberpunk-adventure some years ago, and it's title was "Dystopia" :-) Unfortunately, I never startet to develop it ... :-)

btw: i'm waiting for your screenshots 

Yeah, me too :-)
I'm working on it, but my PC makes more trouble than it does work ... but they will come, someday, somewhere ... in a galaxy far away ... ;-)