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Author Topic: ogg speex & matroska container  (Read 7636 times)

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odnorf

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ogg speex & matroska container
« on: May 19, 2003, 12:09:41 PM »

I  guess you already know them.

ogg speex : www.speex.org
It's a codec for speech, with very small bitrates. It would be ideal for amateur adventure games and a better solution than ogg vorbis for speech. It's also part of the xiph.org, it's patent free and has the same bsd-like licence as vorbis codec.

matroska container : http://www.matroska.org/
It's a great, new opensource container with capabilities that you can't find in the old avi container. It's getting bigger and bigger in the last months (many programs support it already, you may wish to check www.doom9.org). It's under a dual licence and you have to contact the authors to get the licence to implement it into WME.
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Mnemonic

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Re:ogg speex & matroska container
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2003, 03:30:54 PM »

Thanks, odnorf. I'll definitely give Speex a try.
But I'm not sure Matroska has any major advantage compared to AVI at the moment, at least for our purposes. But I didn't study it much yet...
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odnorf

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Re:ogg speex & matroska container
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2003, 07:37:29 PM »

But I'm not sure Matroska has any major advantage compared to AVI at the moment, at least for our purposes. But I didn't study it much yet...

Well, it will give the game developer the ability to create a video with ALMOST ANY codecs he likes (ofcource the game player must have them installed in his computer) for video & audio which is something that the old avi container can't. Examples for video : Mpeg1, Mpeg2, Theora, DivX, XviD, WMV9 VCM, ON2VP3, HuffYuf, H.264, 3ivx, MPEG4V3/2, etc. Examples for audio : Vorbis, MP2, MP3, AC3, AAC, etc.. Not all of them are currently working but they will in the future. All the other great futures are not really needed for an adventure game.
You may also wish to check this announcement http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=8900&s=5f5e6444df025cfe961aa057f84e05d7
« Last Edit: May 19, 2003, 07:38:46 PM by odnorf »
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Mnemonic

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Re:ogg speex & matroska container
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2003, 09:48:14 PM »

Well, it will give the game developer the ability to create a video with ALMOST ANY codecs he likes (ofcource the game player must have them installed in his computer) for video & audio which is something that the old avi container can't.
I thought it was possible with AVI too, once you have the correct codecs installed, or am I missing something?
What I don't like on AVI is that the API function only work with files; it's not possible to stream video from a custom file format (such as the WME package). I'd have to write my own AVI file parser to support that :-(
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odnorf

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Re:ogg speex & matroska container
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2003, 10:12:03 PM »

I thought it was possible with AVI too, once you have the correct codecs installed, or am I missing something?

From what I know, it's not possible. Avi's can't contain videos encoded with all those codecs because of many limitations. For example, an AVI file can't have the audio part in MP2, AAC, MPC, Ogg Vorbis, etc. And if you try to mux them in the avi container you will get a file that video & audio are completely out of sync. AVI's can't even contain an mp3 file that is not 48Khz without having lots of sync problems.

EDIT: Oh... and I have to add that with the avi format a game developer that is going to sell his game will have to buy an mp3 licence, 'cause this is the only audio format (in vbr & 48khz only) that works "ok" in the avi container (unless he uses an uncompressed pcm wav file, which will make his videos huge).

PS. If you still think that matroska isn't worth it, you could consider to add support for .ogm files. It's the ogg container which is used to store a divx compatible video (until theora from the xiph.org is finished) with vorbis for audio. You will find more informations at www.doom9.org
« Last Edit: May 20, 2003, 10:22:22 AM by odnorf »
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Re:ogg speex & matroska container
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2003, 08:32:31 PM »

From what I know, it's not possible. Avi's can't contain videos encoded with all those codecs because of many limitations. For example, an AVI file can't have the audio part in MP2, AAC, MPC, Ogg Vorbis, etc. And if you try to mux them in the avi container you will get a file that video & audio are completely out of sync. AVI's can't even contain an mp3 file that is not 48Khz without having lots of sync problems.
OK, I didn't know that. Unfortunately I'm not very familiar with this stuff :(

EDIT: Oh... and I have to add that with the avi format a game developer that is going to sell his game will have to buy an mp3 licence, 'cause this is the only audio format (in vbr & 48khz only) that works "ok" in the avi container (unless he uses an uncompressed pcm wav file, which will make his videos huge).
Well, WME currently only supports PCM encoded sound anyway...

PS. If you still think that matroska isn't worth it, you could consider to add support for .ogm files. It's the ogg container which is used to store a divx compatible video (until theora from the xiph.org is finished) with vorbis for audio. You will find more informations at www.doom9.org
Like I said, I don't know much about this. I'll have to look into it sometime; there's definitely a lot of space for improving.
I hope Theora will fulfil our need for easy to use, patent free video format.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2003, 08:33:13 PM by Mnemonic »
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odnorf

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Re:ogg speex & matroska container
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2003, 10:30:16 PM »

Quote
Well, WME currently only supports PCM encoded sound anyway...

That's why I suggested those two containers (matroska and ogg) so that we can have videos with the audio part encoded with the vorbis codec.

Quote
I hope Theora will fulfil our need for easy to use, patent free video format.

Yeah, I am waiting for the theora codec too. But as far as I know it won't be patent-free as vorbis and speex. It will just be opensource under the bsd-like licence xiph.org uses. But it will be covered under the same patents that cover all the mpeg4-like codecs. Please, anyone, correct me if I am wrong into this.

EDIT: Ok... I checked the licence thing. From the faq in www.theora.org

Q: Isn't vp3 a patented technology? (theora is based on vp3)
A: Yes, some portions of the vp3 codec are covered by patents. However, the Xiph.org Foundation has negotiated an irrevocable free license to the vp3 codec for any purpose imaginable on behalf of the public. It is legal to use vp3 in any way you see fit (unless, of course, you're doing something illegal with it in your particular jurisdiction). You are free to download vp3, use it free of charge, implement it in a for-sale product, implement it in a free product, make changes to the source and distribute those changes, or print the source code out and wallpaper your spare room with it.

Q: What is the license for Theora?
A: Theora (and all associated technologies released by the Xiph.org Foundation) is released to the public via a BSD-style license. It is completely free for commercial or noncommercial use. That means that commercial developers may independently write Theora software which is compatible with the specification for no charge and without restrictions of any kind.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2003, 10:38:52 PM by odnorf »
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Mnemonic

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Re:ogg speex & matroska container
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2003, 12:14:40 PM »

Sounds good :)
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Brassfire

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Re:ogg speex & matroska container
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2003, 01:25:05 PM »

Wow, coolness! Thanks for the research, odnorf. 8)
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