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Messages - Jeroen

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Feature requests, suggestions / Re: 3d scrolling
« on: December 01, 2006, 02:27:02 PM »
Hi there,

Thanks for the examples.
IMHO general purpose 3D engines are to 'generic' for a lot of stuff, and perhaps is too costly to develop from scratch.
We bought Unity ( for action-based games, which can be compared to the engines you suggested
(Unity is the king of those engines ;D)

Feature requests, suggestions / Re: 3d scrolling
« on: November 22, 2006, 07:22:31 PM »
Good to have heared everyone's opinion on this matter!
Now it's up to us to decide wheter we'll be using WME (my preference)

Feature requests, suggestions / Re: 3d scrolling
« on: November 21, 2006, 10:40:30 AM »
Hi Metamorphium,

Sorry if I may have misread your post.
New stuff in engines may take a long time to implement and showcased in a "real" example.
I am correct when I say stencil shadows have been implemented just very recently?

I agree though that "bad craftmen blame their tools". I also think WME could have a better
showcase by now, but god knows what is happening with WME at the moment.

It's just that we now want to create a game and avoid all the "weak points" that Joe had as much
as possible.

I am sorry to hear there is a lot of negativity in this community!
If I can help out to improve stuff in any way, I'm happy to help out.

Feature requests, suggestions / Re: 3d scrolling
« on: November 21, 2006, 09:09:36 AM »
Haven't bothered to read most of this, however I don't think WME should ever go full realtime. The current optional, realtime 3D objects is enough given that is the direction the traditional adventure industry has been headed for a number of..............

Well first of all, I think you should have read most of this thread before answering, because now your reply seems like an autonome "I dont want 3D because I..." answer, and not an actual discussion or responds on what has been mentioned here.

I am surprised there are so little finished smaller WME games at the moment. We wanted to go commercial with Joe so that's a different thing, but I still don't understand why there are not more smaller fanbased WME games finished. I don't know if AGS is easier. I did found it hard to work with because it restricts way too much. In WME there is a complete template ready! Just fill in the blanks! AGS users will understand it perfectly after some research. We did a 2D/3D test some months ago, and got it up and running within 30 minutes.
I think, for WME, much can change with a different webdesign, promotion, presentation of portfolio, etc.

Now back to the topic. I haven't read a single good argument why 3D should not be implemented, except personal opinions on how the engine should be. I've read:
- possibile instability
- hackish
- there-are-enough-3d-engines-so-use-these.
- and some others.
What a bunch of negativity :)

Now let's look at:
- development time (IMHO faster and cheaper)
- easier-to-find-team members
- exceptance of target audience
- getting adventures out of the niche market
- art direction and storytelling using cameras, shadows, etc.

With the right graphics designer you can create atmospheric 3D games which can co-exist with 2D games

So you're saying: if you want 3d, use a generic 3d engine? And this is not the case with 2.5D or 2D? Let's pretend WME didn't exist and I wanted to make a 2D engine. You'd say: "use BlitzBasic or DarkBasic or whatever. They have a good 2D sprite system"? Nope, you wouldn't. :)

The reason a full 3d engine is not the right choice IMHO is:
They are too generic and you have to make a dialogue system, 3d pathfinding, event based system,
adventure animation system etc. For action based games they are excellent.
We use (Unity) which is a great tool for those kind of games.

I think it's important to remember that WME is designed for a specific game genre,
and this provides the foundation for an adventure game.
This is why we want WME for our next game.
Wheter it's 2D, 2.5D or 3D is matter of technical implementation, in which only
Jan Nedoma knows if it's doable or not.

Quote from: SoundGuy
3d is needed for true profits. That's what publishers want, thats' what the gamers want.

Exactly. And that doesn't mean 2D should be thrown away (god no).

Feature requests, suggestions / Re: 3d scrolling
« on: November 21, 2006, 12:02:36 AM »
That sound like a hacky, but still interesting.
But, this "actor" is placed in a layer, and is not a real "scene", in the sense
that it does not care about Z-ordering.
Let's say this 3d entity is the scene itself containing a couple of buildings
and a tree in the foreground.
Currently in WME the whole object would be rendered BEHIND the character
The actual 3D object should be the scene itself, not just a layer.

Feature requests, suggestions / Re: 3d scrolling
« on: November 20, 2006, 10:21:11 PM »
No problem there :)
But, could we discuss the contents of the actual post? ::)

Game announcements / Re: Educational Game Screen Shots
« on: November 20, 2006, 10:17:05 PM »
Nice. Be sure to provide a nice demo when it's done  ;D

Game design / Re: A tune from planet Vermis ...
« on: November 20, 2006, 10:08:01 PM »
404  :(

Feature requests, suggestions / Re: 3d scrolling
« on: November 20, 2006, 10:06:24 PM »
Sorry to have stirred up this ... stuff :-)

I understand WME will need to be enhanced, perhaps in a way that Jan seems to be not worthwile.
Only Jan knows what's to be changed under the hood.
There are some arguments I'd like to point out though:

- full 3d is inevitable. WME's "longlivity" is, IMHO, based on full 3D support.
  This does not mean 2.5D or 2D games are now out of the picture. They have their
  own characteristics. They will be used the upcoming years.
  We at Sticky Studios love 2D (Scumbag Joe proves that :-) but things are changing
  very rapidly. The market asks for it.

- WME is halfway there. It has reached "the point of no return" :-P
  It is the first adventure specialised engine that has 3D character support.

- I don't think a pixelshaders and advanced stuff it neccessary. But, perhaps it is possible
  to adapt existing render technology in WME and simply say: "hey, if you want fancy stuff,
  check out for the API".
  Because I think Jan is right when he says: "I add 3d, and whats next?"
  This will keep things managable.

- We're not targeting advanced doom3 effect stuff. No one of us has the team and money
  for those kind of scenes anyway. If so, I would personally say:
  "go write your engine" or "license another engine".
  Basic 3d with some bells and whistles is enough.

- It makes your adventure easier to sell.
  Believe me, it does :-)
  Which is good for the community, for WME and for world peace!

- Faster development and smaller resources.
  No more hundreds of frames, but 3D models,
  You can switch a camera to zoom in or focus on another part, and you'll still
  only have to design one room!
  There are also much more 3D specialists than 2D specialists.

Jan: I'm not sure, after reading the posts above, that I should shut up about this, or not :-( If so, sorry.

Feature requests, suggestions / 3d scrolling
« on: November 19, 2006, 01:05:46 PM »
Hi there fellow WME-ers!

I've been quite absent after the Scumbag Joe debacle which demotivated us for a while. But we're back in business with lots of ideas for a new adventure game.

This time we're thinking of a full 3D game (smaller in story size, mid-priced game). We've been noticing two important requests from publishers and interested parties:

- "We want 3D"
  The reason: people have LCD monitors nowadays, showing an incredible variety of screen resolutions.
  With bitmap backgrounds, this will not look pretty.
  Also, slight 3d camera panning gives the game a great look and feel, and zooming in when
  the character has a dialogue (Sam 'n Max) is not much work in 3d, but for 2d you have
  to (re)render a new scene. Also, when you want a slight different angle, in WME you'll need to
  re-edit your whole scene, including static foreground objects.
  The bottom line: WME seems to be "almost feature complete": it has 3d characters, shadows,
  the whole shebang.

  Basicly what we would need is to use a 3D object as environment
  and define child objects in this 3D scene (clickable in scene edit) as a regular WME object.
  Camera panning would be same as scrolling now, except when you want
  to turn the camera and such, the user could implement a custom script that handles this.
  (e.g turnCamera(pitch,yaw,roll) based on character location).
  Lastly, it would be nice to be able switch camera's.
  (E.g cameras are defined in 3dsmax like now).
  When you have a dialogue or cutscene, you simply call ActiveCamera(myCam);
  The interface (2d) could simply be a bitmap, not scaling with the screen resolution.
  Just like now, but ignoring the resolution it is being displayed on.

- Cross Platform
  Although I think this is increasingly getting important, it is a thing we could live with.
  The interpreter, compiler could be ported (porting the tools would be huge), but I can
  imagine its a b*tch to transform DirectX code to OpenGL?
  However, the Mac platform is very interesting. Not much games exist for this relative small target
  audience. They are willing to buy games quite easily (this has been researched by some publishers).

Phew...Sorry for the long post.
What are your thoughts on this?

I think WME is *awesome* and there is no adventure based engine that comes close to WME.
Implementing 3D environments would make WME perfect.
I understand the fear that the user base want advanced 3D stuff and WME becomes a bloated
engine, but perhaps it is possible to adapt existing technology (rendered) and provide advanced
3d stuff through some kind of external script API? Or....?

General Discussion / Re: WME 1.6.1
« on: June 08, 2006, 11:09:44 PM »
A great update if you ask me!

Game announcements / Re: mdq insident proyect
« on: March 06, 2006, 06:42:56 PM »
Looks like the intro scene from "Cruise for a Corpse". Interesting technique!

General Discussion / Re: Cross Platform?
« on: June 24, 2005, 10:21:15 AM »
Darn shame DirectX isn't crossplatform...If it was, it would be a lot easier to make some sort of Mac compiler/interpreter.

Feature requests, suggestions / Re: dynamic shadows
« on: June 21, 2005, 08:19:45 AM »
Good idea! Things like a flashlight then could be possible to, by projecting a "sprite" or "quad" onto the hidden surface, and add/multiply the color values of the quad together with the background colors.

Jan, are "blending modes" planned?

Feature requests, suggestions / Re: Pixel shaders
« on: June 21, 2005, 08:18:05 AM »
IMHO I don't think WME -at this point - should support pixel shaders, since that slowly turns it into a complete 3d engine. A lot of effects (smoke, rain, water) can be pre-rendered and then imported in WME. Yes, all those bitmaps will cost more memory, but somehow pixel shaders seem overkill atm.

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