Wintermute Engine Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Zorro on March 19, 2003, 10:42:14 PM

Title: So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Zorro on March 19, 2003, 10:42:14 PM
That "you will have to obtain a separate license and it will cost you $$$" does not sound nice. Not nice at all. It might easily turn into something like $50,000 + 10% royalties when you already stuck with WME lured to a "free" engine.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Ionias on March 21, 2003, 03:35:07 AM
I'm also interested in the final "price" ;)
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Brassfire on March 21, 2003, 05:55:18 PM
Yeah, Mnemonic, you really need to change that phrase.

Guys - he said he'd be reasonable about it. Obviously if you were to make millions (or even thousands) off your game, he'd want something because you wouldn't even have a game if not for the engine. If you're very unlikely to make money off your game, even if you are selling it... well, you aren't going to have the money to pay him something big, right? But you have to discuss it with him on a case-by-case basis.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Mnemonic on March 21, 2003, 06:57:45 PM
It might easily turn into something like $50,000 + 10% royalties
Uh, do I look like I'm crazy or something?  ???
If I wanted to become filthy rich, I wouldn't spend all my free time working on WME, that's for sure. There are better ways for me to make money, believe me. It's a hobby for me, you know?


when you already stuck with WME lured to a "free" engine.
What do you mean, "lured to a free engine"? I believe I made it clear enough it's totally free for non-commercial use only.


Yeah, Mnemonic, you really need to change that phrase.
Yeah, you're right. I just have million other things to think about other than the licensing scheme...
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Zorro on March 21, 2003, 07:33:12 PM
Yeah, Mnemonic, you really need to change that phrase.

Guys - he said he'd be reasonable about it. Obviously if you were to make millions (or even thousands) off your game, he'd want something because you wouldn't even have a game if not for the engine. If you're very unlikely to make money off your game, even if you are selling it... well, you aren't going to have the money to pay him something big, right? But you have to discuss it with him on a case-by-case basis.

So, everything depends on HIS definition of "reasonable"? And I see nothing "obvious" in "discuss it with him on a case-by-case basis". Shell we also discuss it that way with Microsoft "because you wouldn't even have a game if not for the" Windows and VC++? Or would you? When I'm buying a set of paints and brushes nobody cares if I paint the next Mona Lisa or just my fence. No paint maker won't even TRY to claim any credit in results of artist's work.

I imagine the dialog: "OK, for now you can take this set completely free, we shell see how your works sell and then make a REASONABLE arrangement..."

I've just checked Sludge's page. It costs 50 bucks and NO royalties whatsoever. THAT's reasonable.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Zorro on March 21, 2003, 07:42:43 PM
Look, Mnemonic, I'm not trying to insult you or anything. I'm just trying to evaluate the viability of using your engine in a series of adventure games. All I'm asking you is to name the price, that's it.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Brassfire on March 21, 2003, 11:52:25 PM
I would rather he did decide on a case-by-case basis.

I haven't even discussed my game with Mnemonic yet, but I do trust he's making the engine just for the enjoyment of it, or he wouldn't have it available on a free basis even for non-commercial, not-for-profit use. From what I know so far, he is a reasonable and considerate person.

If you are making a series of adventure games that you plan to sell, then you might want to make a realistic projection of how many people are likely to buy your games, and work out what your costs will be, and *then* talk to Mnemonic. (That's why I haven't talked to him yet about payment, besides which the first parts of the game are free, and I won't know what the interest is for the paid parts until after the free ones are released.)

If you're just doing it for fun, then you're probably not going to be making much money anyway.

If you want a price, talk to Mnemonic, don't try to force him to say one price which won't work for all other cases, and which may ruin it for those of us who can't pay what you would consider reasonable.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Ionias on March 22, 2003, 12:54:00 AM
Let me just clarify my position.

I am going to make another commercial game. Right now I'm using AGS for my current project. Which is free even for commercial use. However, looking to the future I want to create a more commercialy viable game, and the WME engine looks perfect for the job. I'm just interested in the cost up front. If Mnemonic prefers to keep that on a game to game basis that's fine with me. I was just curious. ;)
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Zorro on March 22, 2003, 04:55:59 AM
I would rather he did decide on a case-by-case basis.

I haven't even discussed my game with Mnemonic yet, but I do trust he's making the engine just for the enjoyment of it, or he wouldn't have it available on a free basis even for non-commercial, not-for-profit use. From what I know so far, he is a reasonable and considerate person.

If you are making a series of adventure games that you plan to sell, then you might want to make a realistic projection of how many people are likely to buy your games, and work out what your costs will be, and *then* talk to Mnemonic. (That's why I haven't talked to him yet about payment, besides which the first parts of the game are free, and I won't know what the interest is for the paid parts until after the free ones are released.)

If you're just doing it for fun, then you're probably not going to be making much money anyway.

If you want a price, talk to Mnemonic, don't try to force him to say one price which won't work for all other cases, and which may ruin it for those of us who can't pay what you would consider reasonable.

Well, what you've just said already implies he's gonna charge too much. But wait, if I did have such kind of money I'd probably go after the TLJ engine or something like that. Now, how he's gonna decide "on a case-by-case basis" if there is no any case yet? And AFTER the game is made what would prevent him to impose ANY charges? What options would I have if I don't like the price, trash everything and start from the scratch with some other engine? He's saying he's not dreaming of becoming filthy rich, so what he's dreaming of? Becoming not-that-filthy rich? If so, I'll just be looking elsewhere since I'm indeed not going to make tons of money (if any) from that project.

As I already said, Sludge costs $50. 3D GameStudio (commertial edition) costs $200 - well, it might be not specifically designed for adventure games but it would certainly do the trick and sa far as I can tell, it's more advanced than WME. None include any royalties etc. (BTW, does that "on a case-by-case basis" means I'd have to pay separately for EVERY game I made and every time the price will be "renegotiated"?) So let me tell you what _I_ believe is reasonable price: $100. That includes all future bugfixes, free udates for .X versons, and a limited email support for a couple of months. I don't think that such price would ruin anybody's plans. But if it ruins Mnemonic's plans... Well, greed is one of the mortal sins. If he does do it for fun and not for money he should be happy people are actually using his stuff. But if it's a purely commercial enterprise, I prefer to deal with it as with commertial enterprise - negotiate everything upfront because I know that the only thing they want is to rob me.

Lastly, about "commercial" use. It's not clear at all what "commercial" actually mean. The problem is adventure games are usually too big to be downloaded. And even if you find such enthusiasts you'll still end up with a huge net traffic bills. Thus, in ANY case you'll have to chage SOMETHING just to cover your delivery expences. You might also want to cover some of your other expences like 3D-modelling software, etc. You still are making games to make games, but would Mr.Mnemonic be REASONABLE enough to consider it non-commercial use? I'm not sure at all. So it's likely that ANY more or less decent game - whatever the author's intentions were - will turn out to be a "commercial" project, subject to UNKNOWN royalties. Which might FORCE author to rise the price to indeed a commercial level.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Ionias on March 22, 2003, 02:24:58 PM
Zorro: I can understand your issues. However, you seem to be vilifying Mnemonic. Brassfire is the one who said he may decide on a case by case basis. Mnemonic said:

Quote
Quote
Quote from: Brassfire on Yesterday at 05:55:18pm
Yeah, Mnemonic, you really need to change that phrase.
 

Yeah, you're right. I just have million other things to think about other than the licensing scheme...
So cut the guy some slack. You've stated your concerns now give him some time to sort out the issues. I'm sure he'll figure it out and be fair about it.

Also, yes you can work on an adventure game before choosing an engine. You can work on the artwork. I worked at least 6 months on Fatman Adv before I even imported a single sprite into AGS.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Jerrot on March 22, 2003, 02:30:21 PM
...and finally I'm quite sure, that Mnemonic just wants to take over the world!  8)

SCNR! ;)
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Zorro on March 22, 2003, 03:57:32 PM
Sure, lots can be done before chosing an engine so I'm not in a hurry at all. I'm just trying to figure out the budget.

As of vilifying Mnemonic, I'm not vilifying nobody. I asked him a very simple and direct question: the commercial licence price - in the initial message of this thread. But instead of giving me equally stright answer he started that he's not as greedy as I might think. So, what should I think now? I still have no answer.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Brassfire on March 22, 2003, 07:47:02 PM
Well, I can't do even $20 right now, so how is $100 a reasonable price for every case? If you want to pay him that, talk to him, but don't tell me I should pay that.

It makes more sense for you to work out what your expenses are, what you're charging, and how many people are really likely to buy your game before even asking a question like that.

Not only that, you could always do a free demo to test the engine and the audience, which will give you some estimate of your figures. Since the demo is free, you don't have to pay anything for the engine.

Oh, and have some trust, geez.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Zorro on March 23, 2003, 04:53:07 AM
C'mon, 20 bucks is 4 meals in McD, don't say you're THAT poor.

Than,  100 bucks sounds reasonable because WME seems to be better than Sludge that costs 50 bucks but worse than 3DGS, that costs 200 bucks - NOT because you or I can or can not pay such sum right away. Besides, ANYBODY can afford that price if it's due only when you go commercial.

Now, about trust. Why should I trust a person that refuses to answer a simple question that is important to me? Even worse, he clearly said that he just don't have time to devise a licensing scheme, what means there WILL BE some pretty complex licensing scheme - you don't need time to just say: "N bucks" and nobody would call it a "licensing scheme". And I don't like it. When Mnemonic himself bought VC++ (or whatever he bought) nobody asked him what he's gonna write, how many programs, what is his potential customers base and how much he's planning to charge for his products. He bought a tool and now it's only HIS busines how to use that tool. If he became multibillionaire using that tool - good for him. Just the same, I'm also buying a tool, I want to pay for it and than it will be only MY business what I do with it, I don't want ANY stinky licensing schemes.

Sure, I know that all MAJOR engines do carry all kinds of licensing schemes but that's exactly why can't afford them. All that companies care about nothing but money, all that licensing schemes designed with one single purpose: to squeeze as much money as possible. If Mnemonic is the same, I'll wish him luck and go somewhere else. On the other hand he did say he's here not for money, so I give him a chance to prove it, but so far his deeds say otherwise than words.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Ionias on March 23, 2003, 05:33:21 AM
I think I only just now understand why Chris Jones has kept AGS free. ;)
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Brassfire on March 23, 2003, 06:07:31 AM
AGS is also free only for NON-commercial use, I believe. It's been a while since I read the faq, though.

Still, that's a very good point. It's a lot of hassle to try to decide on something that's fair for everyone, so give the man some time to think. Or email him personally, which is what he suggested in the first place.

(And yes, there are some of us to whom $20 *US* is a lot of money.)

I think Mnemonic is right to look at licensing on a case-by-case basis. Rich people can afford a lot, poorer people can't, and often need those tools in order to achieve something worthwhile. So charge more to rich people. ;)

Or he could just put a donation button on the site, if it's worded appropriately.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Zorro on March 23, 2003, 10:54:20 AM
"Fair for everyone..." Well, I know only one such thing and it ain't no licensing scheme... :-)

"$20 *US*..." What??? Canadian buck suddenly became yen? My advise: chane your twenty into quorters, cross the border and change them back.

"Rich people can afford a lot, poorer people can't, and often need those tools in order to achieve something worthwhile. So charge more to rich people." And how he's gonna tell ones from others? Check their bank accounts? No, seriously. If you ask me, I don't think there is a single rish person over here, or will be anytime soon. Rich guys don't mess with amateur engines. However, if you or Mnemonic feel like subsidising poors by taking from richs, why not chose something a lit'l bit more radical than game engine charges?
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Mnemonic on March 23, 2003, 02:40:14 PM
Okay... many things have been said in this thread, so let me describe my point of view.

Let's summarize the facts:

Fact one: WME is a relatively immature product; it has been released about three months ago. I didn't have a clear idea of licensing the engine back then and I obviously don't have it still. That's why I didn't answer Zorro's "simple" question and that's also why I welcome a discussion like this because I'm curious about people's opinions on this matter (I'd prefer a less "heated" discussion though...).

Fact two: I'm most probably not giving WME away for free for commercial use. I have my reasons for it and I won't discuss that because it's my decision.

OK now, what are the "licensing" possibilities?
1) Give the product away for free for any use, including commercial. That's the case of AGS and Chris Jones deserves a deepest respect for that. Oh well, I'm probably not that generous though, so I decided to complicate my life by licenses and stuff. It's not a matter of greed, as Zorro seems to think ;) It's (among others) a feel of appreciation of one's work. Fortunately, all the people intending to eventually "go commercial" seem to be ready to pay a certain amount for a product which allows them to build and run the game, so no problem here. Let's move on.

2) A fixed price. Zorro, you said the Sludge pricing seems reasonable to you. Well, not to me. Not that I don't think Tim deserves those 50 bucks, actually I think he deserves more than that. But I don't like you have to pay the price even if you are going to make a simple freeware game. Of course, I can understand this scheme - many people start their games, not many finish them. No difference in the Sludge world. You may like it, I don't. You've mentioned other commercial programs several times, such as the Visual C++ (which indeed I had to buy to make WME). You seem to like this approach, "here, we sell you a tool, do whatever you want with it". The problem is those products are way too expensive for this approach to work. Yep, VC++ is far from cheap, so is Photoshop, 3DS Max, etc. Also, and more importantly, they sell many more units than any game engine ever will.

3) A percentage of the game's final price. This is what I'm leaning towards to the most. Itís simply because this approach seems to me to be the fairest one. And my "free for non-commercial" is already a part of this scheme. You make no profit, I make no profit. It's fine with me. You make a big money on your bestseller, remember who helped you to get there. We share the risk, we share the gain. You can think about it as of the engine developer being a part of your development team. Of course, this is the administratively most complicated case, but like I said, it's *fair* (or at least I think so).


OK, this is how *I* see it. Of course I may be terribly wrong, and that's why I'd love to hear your opinions. Thanks.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Mnemonic on March 23, 2003, 02:43:05 PM
...and finally I'm quite sure, that Mnemonic just wants to take over the world!  8)

Beware, puny mortals! Bwahahahahaha!!!
 ;D
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Ionias on March 23, 2003, 02:59:31 PM
lol

That sounds the most fair to me. I'll talk with you via email or MSN IM for the details on % of profit.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Jerrot on March 23, 2003, 03:03:30 PM
Hi Mnemonic,


3) A percentage of the game's final price. This is what I'm leaning towards to the most.
[...]
Of course, this is the administratively most complicated case, but like I said, it's *fair* (or at least I think so).
I share your point of view - it's fair but rather complicated and finally founded on trust between you and the authors (how many games were sold, ...) !

Actually I've got no problem with this kind of agreement, I like it. I just hope you won't be "tricked" that way.

Or you would have to found a "company" and only this company would be authorized to sell the games, hmmmm... but I'm quite sure most people would not like this idea.

Greetings, Jerrot.

(edit: ok, ok, *I* don't like this idea. It destroys my believe in the friendly-flower-power-peaceful developer community!  ;) )
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Scarpia on March 23, 2003, 07:57:12 PM
I always thought the percentage thing was obvious to all? OF course that's the way - if it's free for non-commercial games and not free for commercial ones, and the price will be based on specific cases, well then - claiming a certain percentage is the way to go (man, my old math teacher would be proud of me).

As I see it, if I had created something as big and professional as WME, I'd like for a lot of people to use it, but I'd also like to think it was worth buying. So I'd give it away for non-commercial use, and try not think too much about the money, or I'd go nuts in my dreams of glory and fortune. And if someone nice like Brassfire made a small commercial game, and it didn't sell too well, then I'd actually feel pretty lousy if I took a lot of money for the engine. But if a team of pro game designers used my engine and made a 15-language multi-DVD bestseller and made $20 million in profits off it, I'd feel like my contribution to that succes was quite enough to demand a portion of it, and that would be a hell of a lot more than 100$.

I say we let Mnemonic work on this without bitching so much over the licencing. I'm pretty sure he's as curious as anyt of us to see, in time, what projects can be done with it, and how many pro game designers will come to like it so much that they will start using it for commercial games..


Scarpia

Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Zorro on March 24, 2003, 04:41:59 AM
So, the "hobby" turned out to be an enterprise after all. Even before actually proving itself. Well, as I've already said, I wish the best luck to Mr.Mnemonic. As of myself, I'll try something else - just don't feel like fighting his lawyers trying to prove I've sold more than I reported.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Mnemonic on March 24, 2003, 08:54:52 AM
Okay, good luck to you too. I'm sure you'll find a tool which will suit your needs better than WME. And although you sound a little bit too paranoid for my taste ;), I think I can understand your concerns.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: OldCoder on April 28, 2003, 12:27:27 AM
Hello Mnemonic

If you honestly think about making that engine a success for you, you will have to make a price. I have seen this site first time today. And the first thing I hated was the line: ... commercial ... it will cost $$$.
That's bad style. And without that forum and that topic here I would have been gone forever already.

Let me write some thoughts down that I can add here.

Years ago I saw 3D Gamestudio Adverts. Looking closer into it I found out that they have a license system. I wrote an email to them which contained lots of the arguments that Zorro wrote above. Several others must have done that or they may not have been able to sell their commercial and professional engine - what ever it was - they quickly have changed their policy and are now proudly announcing on their website - NO License !!! Making it one of the main arguments to buy their development system. Actually they now leave the impression that it would be the most terrible thing in the world to beg for license fees ;)

Does anyone here know Blaxxun? Blaxxun Contact is a plugin for the Internet Explorer that is used by 3D-Chat-Communities like Cybertown. I asked them for their price (2 years ago) because I planned a Community like that. I got the answer (in other words): That depends how successful you are!!! $50000 if you have up to 500 People online at a time - if more then the price is higher too.
That means: I have the work and the ideas and they get the money. And if I work harder and have better ideas they get even more.
Okay - one should not talk bad about the dead - meanwhile they are broke - and you can imagine why ...

There are several tools for Gamedevelopers on the Market and there are new ones just recently coming and going. 3D Gamestudio, Blitz3D, Dark Basic Pro, DIV, Jamagic, GBasic, etc. are the astablished ones I know. Gamestudio costs between $200 and $1000, depending what sort of game you want to develop. The others are between $80 and $180 as far as I know.

I bought them all and still have not found THE Engine to develop my Community. Each lacks things the others have - and no-one is able to fulfil all needs. A combination of the best features of all would be perfect. Anyway; I have my program nearly finished learning a lot making several parts of it for every system.

Coming back to price-policies:
With all upgrades 3D-Studio cost me about $1500 by now. And there is the new upgrade out (maybe THE thing I am really looking for) but it would cost me another $500 - making it $2000 for me, summed up. Someone who buys it new today gets it for $1000. You see - there is no justice. I have supported the developer for years - helping him to be still alive - and the thanks I get is: I would have payed twice the price for the same product that a newbie pays for it.
This shows that there is no model that suits for everyone.

But one thing is for sure:
If you start with a license system you will not make a penny.
What you (in my view) can do is: Make your product better than the mentioned above, make its language simple (like) BASIC and fix a price between $100 and $150.
Make that public on the net and be sure that nearly EVERYONE - and every wannabe gamedeveloper - that has bought Blitz or Dark or Jamagic or Gamestudio or whatever will buy your Engine, too.
Add a development environment - sort of a WorldBuilderTool thats easy to use, fits to your system and maybe converts from others like Quake3, VRML, Unreal, Half Life or others - and you can make the price $49 higher.
Add an easy to use Model-Editor, that supports Bone-Animation, converts from B3D, X, 3DS, VRML97 etc. and that fits into your system and you make another $30 to $50 from each sold download.

I will watch the development - and will buy for sure if its something like that. And if not I will use the ones I already have or look for something else. ;)
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: odnorf on April 28, 2003, 11:11:06 AM
And the first thing I hated was the line: ... commercial ... it will cost $$$.

What's the problem here? That if you decide to make a game and earn some money then mnemonic doesn't deserve anything?

There are several tools for Gamedevelopers on the Market and there are new ones just recently coming and going. 3D Gamestudio, Blitz3D, Dark Basic Pro, DIV, Jamagic, GBasic, etc. are the astablished ones I know.

Well, Wintermute Engine is an "adventure creator" and not a programming language (althought it has a scripting language to create more complicated things). So the programs you mentioned (like Dark Basic, GBasic) are no comparable to WME (like mad, sludge, agast, AGS etc are).

Coming back to price-policies:
With all upgrades 3D-Studio cost me about $1500 by now. And there is the new upgrade out (maybe THE thing I am really looking for) but it would cost me another $500 - making it $2000 for me, summed up. Someone who buys it new today gets it for $1000. You see - there is no justice. I have supported the developer for years - helping him to be still alive - and the thanks I get is: I would have payed twice the price for the same product that a newbie pays for it.
This shows that there is no model that suits for everyone.

What this has to do with Wintermute Engine and mnemonic. Does he asked you 2000$ without you have FIRST earned a lot more by using his engine?

But one thing is for sure:
If you start with a license system you will not make a penny.
What you (in my view) can do is: Make your product better than the mentioned above, make its language simple (like) BASIC

Make the language like Basic? For what? Make the engine less powerfull?

and fix a price between $100 and $150.
Make that public on the net and be sure that nearly EVERYONE - and every wannabe gamedeveloper - that has bought Blitz or Dark or Jamagic or Gamestudio or whatever will buy your Engine, too.

And as far as the price, I don't think that could work. I'm a amateur adventure developer (one of the 1000s in the world) and I'm using this engine 'cause it's free for my free adventure. When someday I decide to create a commercial product then I will gladly pay for the engine but NOT NOW.  

I will watch the development - and will buy for sure if its something like that. And if not I will use the ones I already have or look for something else. ;)

Other adventure engine out there mad, AGS, sludge, lixoo (not completed) and visionaire.

PS. I still don't understand if you are looking for an adventure engine  or just found this program and complain about it's licence when nobody asked you any money. You keep talking in your post about programs that are NOT comparable to WME or the others engines out there, while you said NOTHING about adventure games. You also talked about an engine to "create a community"?!?!? I think that you are in the wrong place 'cause what WME does (and very well) is to help you create adventure games and nothing else.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: OldCoder on April 28, 2003, 11:55:14 AM
Quote
What's the problem here? That if you decide to make a game and earn some money then mnemonic doesn't deserve anything?
Read it all - no-one talked about nothing !

Quote
Make the language like Basic? For what? Make the engine less powerfull?
Come off it - Maybe I didn't get the secrets inside yet - but checking the 2 examples I didn't see anything that cannot be  done better with one of the mentioned Tools.

For you as amateur developer that may go commercial I admit, I wouldn't have a solution (remember - I was only dropping some thoughts into the discussion, as I wrote! It's Mnemonics business how its handled in the end) - but Microsoft or the producers of the hardware of your computer don't care either if you use your computer for fun or business - you at least have to pay for some sort of system (a fixed price that you know before you work or play with it - not one depending on what you do)

I did mention what I want to produce - 3D-Online-Chats - and I don't care if it's done with an adventure-engine or an engine based on BASIC or Javascript or a 3D-Shooter-engine or whatever, as long as it is working reliable in the end and the program is easy to devolop with - and especially if the price to buy the engine is right in my view (means: not too expensive to make a test - not too big of a loss if I put it forever into the bookshell after 10 days).

Quote
PS. I still don't understand if you are looking for an adventure engine (you said nothing about it in you post) or just found this program and complain about it's licence when nobody asked you any money
I think that's anserwed above now - besides the licence thing.
If you buy a Hammer (a tool in the far sense as a 3D-Engine) you know what it costs you to use it. No-one comes and says: you hammered more than 1000 nails - I want more money then.
And the descendants and grandchildren of the inventor of the hammer do not still want a licence fee for that outstanding invention which it was at its time - as may be a 3D-engine nowadays - especially not depending on what and how many times it's used for.
That's what makes a licence based on selling figures ridiculous ;)
And that's what makes people that do not know a fixed price for their product and are anxious to talk about it freely, suspect  :-\
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: odnorf on April 28, 2003, 12:40:29 PM

I did mention what I want to produce - 3D-Online-Chats

Well, that can't be created with WME. I think that 3d Gamestudio (that you mention is a very good solution).

If you buy a Hammer (a tool in the far sense as a 3D-Engine) you know what it costs you to use it. No-one comes and says: you hammered more than 1000 nails - I want more money then.

Well, I don't think that you can compare a hammer whith a computer program.

A few points about the fixed-price:
1)As I said I am an amateur adventure developer that one day I want to go commercially. If the engine was costing money for an amateur free adventure then I would have used another engine. But now I can use this engine for free and when in the future I (hope to) go commercially I will still use this engine because I will already know it. So the free-engine for free-adventures is a very good advertisment.
2)Let's say that the engine had a fixed price of about 200$. If I buy the engine and create a commercial product and earn 5million$ then this sounds fair to you? All engines out there costs a lot of money (for example the Quake3 engine costs a few thousands $). Do you want this engine to cost (for example) 10.000$ even if you create a product that sells 100 copies for 40$? With a current licence you will not loose any money! (Ofcource you have to trust the engine developer and have some kind of contract with him about the licence and the price.)

And a fact: Big companies like adobe, microsoft etc can have a fixed (expensive... check vc++, photoshop etc) price because they are BIG companies. A 26 years old person (mnemonic) that creates a difficult and complicated program like an adventure engine (that uses Direct3D for it's rendering core) cannot sell it for a low fixed price and cannot afford to sell it for a big fixed price either (like the big comperitors do: try to ask to buy the engine of a commercial game and you will be amazed of how much it's going to cost you.). So a case-by-case is a lot better.

And that's what makes people that do not know a fixed price for their product and are anxious to talk about it freely, suspect  :-\

I understand you concerns (and they are fair) but I think that a low fixed price won't work as well as you think.

And that's It's Mnemonics business how its handled in the end

I agree 100% to that. I just beleive that the previous posts of mnemonic in this thread answer all your questions.

....and sorry if I sound a little harsh in my previous post. :)
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Jerrot on April 28, 2003, 12:59:16 PM
uh, i hate this thread! anyway...

but Microsoft or the producers of the hardware of your computer don't care either if you use your computer for fun or business

that's right. they don't care.  :)
i can understand your point of view, but please have a look at the adventure developer community. how many of them are really creating commercial games? I could understand if Mnemonic said: "uh, I want $$$ and I don't mind if you just want to create a freeware game!", but I'm happy he doesn't, although almost ALL these games are freeware.

And most of them never would even look into a new engine, that comes up with "pay $$$$ and start to create your own adventure!", that's the point!

I understand your arguments, but anyway I prefer the percentage system. Earning $1.000.000 with my adventure, I even would buy a ticket, fly to Mnemonic, invite him for lunch and drinks and hand him a suitcase with money. I wouldn't for Bill...

If you buy a Hammer (a tool in the far sense as a 3D-Engine) you know what it costs you to use it. No-one comes and says: you hammered more than 1000 nails - I want more money then.

Yeah, that's right, so we can discuss this again, when there are millions of games created with wme DAILY, too.  ;)

Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Mnemonic on April 28, 2003, 01:57:30 PM
Uh, do I need to add something? odnorf and Jerrot said it all, that's exactly what I think (including the "i hate this thread" part ;-))
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: OldCoder on April 28, 2003, 03:15:22 PM
@ odnorf:
Quote
try to ask to buy the engine of a commercial game and you will be amazed of how much it's going to cost you
I am in the business as producer of computer magazines and software since 1987 - you must be joking - lol ;) I had these people in my bureau ($300.000 per produced game) - most of them are now delivering the newspapers on a bike each morning or work for MCDonalds - rofl (behind the bar with that chic uniform)

@ Jerrot: You SHOULD invite Bill Gates - because without him I doubt that Mnemonic would develop on a computer rather than on paper and with plastic-actors ;)

As I said before - I am just adding arguments to bring that business on an acceptable way - and if Zorro wouldn't have started that thread I would have done or someone else. Money makes the world go round.  ;D

If Mnemonic writes on his website: it costs from $0.50 if you make $2 ... $100.000.000 if you make $1 Billion.  :P
Or he puts a figure like we make 50:50 if you make money with it.
Then at least it is something a person who is interested knows if its worth to spend time on it.
Figures you can count on - okay ? And are fair and the same for everyone. And then you decide for what ever ...
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Mnemonic on April 28, 2003, 03:21:58 PM
@ Jerrot: You SHOULD invite Bill Gates - because without him I doubt that Mnemonic would develop on a computer rather than on paper and with plastic-actors ;)
I can assure you I've been developing software long before entering the world of PC and Wintel  ;)
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: odnorf on April 28, 2003, 03:49:06 PM
I am in the business as producer of computer magazines and software since 1987 - you must be joking - lol ;)

Joking? Why? Because I said that the commercial engines costs thousands $ and that's true?

most of them are now delivering the newspapers on a bike each morning or work for MCDonalds - rofl (behind the bar with that chic uniform)

Yes, I always thought that "ID" is broke. And yes you must be right... If they sold the Quake3 engine for 100$ now they will be rich.

@ Jerrot: You SHOULD invite Bill Gates - because without him I doubt that Mnemonic would develop on a computer rather than on paper and with plastic-actors ;)

Well, I don't think that Microsoft has offered many things to the computer world. Only products with thousands of bugs. And If you ask me why I use windows, is because I am a graphic designer and I have to use programs like photoshop, Indesign, Illustrator etc (And I don't like macintosh for other reasons)

As I said before - I am just adding arguments to bring that business on an acceptable way - and if Zorro wouldn't have started that thread I would have done or someone else.

Not everything is business. Maybe mnemonic creates this engine because he likes to work for adventure games and if he manage to earn some money by doing what he likes then that's cool. I believe that things are on an "acceptable way" as they are now. It wouldn't be "acceptable" for me If I had to pay for an engine to create a free game. And ofcouse it wouldn't be "acceptable" for me to pay 10.000 to create a commercial game and potentially loose a lot of money. And it wouldn't be "acceptable" for me to pay 100$ for an engine an maybe earn 50.000$ by using it.

Money makes the world go round.  ;D

For me, money just destroys civilization. I just don't like the way companies and individual (like you) treat them like Gods. What I like is creating adventure games. And if I ever create a commercial adventure game then I will contact mnemonic to have an agreement about his share.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: ZackDoneo on April 29, 2003, 04:46:21 PM
I'm new here, obviously, but I have to side with Mnemonic and the others. If you really plan to make money off your game, it's simple business practice for -somebody- to get a percentage somewhere, and that somebody is probably going to have had a big impact on your 'business'. However, I highly doubt any games made with -any- amateur game creation program will bring in even hextuple digits worth of money. The market for adventure games just isn't that big anymore, and considering the obvious distrust of anything that hasn't got big explosions and guns going off every second...

So, Mnemonic is being very reasonable. Any adventure game created using Wintermute that tried to charge even standard commercial fees would flop immediately. Would you play $50 (US) for King's Quest 2 VGA? Or Hero6? Probably not.

I estimate that the most any -successful- amateur adventure game will go for is probably about $20, tops. Mnemonic could probably just go for a fee of 20% per sale - bringing him about $4 dollars every sale, leaving the game-maker $16. Does that sound at all unreasonable?

Zorro, you seem to have very high expectations for your game, if you're planning in the -billions-. Lemme tell you one thing straight out - there is no way in hell.

Brings a question to my mind - why is everyone assuming that it would be a percentage off the end-profit? That would be unreasonable, considering there would always, on occasion, be a sale somewhere along the line, until the game went 'extinct'. Some of these games that go commercial might not make any money at all.

Of course, Mnemonic could charge more or less of a percentage... still wouldn't be unreasonable. From what I've seen, Wintermute is one of the more flexible game-creation programs, and after only three months, that's quite impressive. If he charged 50% on that same $20 program, he'd only get ten dollars out of it. If that program went on to make 30 sales or so, both the creator and Mnemonic would get 300 dollars, and I -still- doubt he'd want 50%, though it's all up to him.

The problem I see here is not that Mnemonic is being greedy, but people with overly high expectations and a portion of their -own- greed are causing problems that don't even make sense. Mnemonic is making this program. You use it. You make money off his program, he gets money for it. Common sense.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: odnorf on April 29, 2003, 05:13:03 PM
...amateur game creation program...

What we are dealing here is not an "amateur game creation program"... trust me... You can do with WME whatever you see in most big commercial 2D adventure games (except the realtime 3D characters...yet...)

Brings a question to my mind - why is everyone assuming that it would be a percentage off the end-profit? That would be unreasonable, considering there would always, on occasion, be a sale somewhere along the line, until the game went 'extinct'. Some of these games that go commercial might not make any money at all.

Well, mnemonic said "A percentage of the game's final price." (in this topic) so you are correct about this... And this is reasonable.

Mnemonic is making this program. You use it. You make money off his program, he gets money for it. Common sense.

Nobody could have said it better...
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Zorro on April 29, 2003, 05:26:41 PM
== For me, money just destroys civilization. I just don't like the way companies and individual (like you) treat them like Gods. ==

And I presume, you count myself such yellow-devil-worshipping kind of person as well. Am I right? However, I completely agree with you - I also believe that money destroys civilization and I like those money rascals no more than you.

I also strongly object the notion that it was ME who started this thread. Well, technically speaking it was me, but as OldCoder absolutely correctly pointed out, if not me, it was bound to be started by somebody else. That's because in the essence it was started by no else but Mr. Mnemonic himself with his now infamous "will cost you $$$".

As a matter of fact, I HATE talking about money and I'd prefer not talking about them at all, but did have I chance? All I was trying to do, was to finish with that highly unfortunate topic as soon as possible BEFORE it became REALLY ugly. Could I avoid that? No. Could our wonderful Mr. Mnemonic prevent it? Sure as Heaven - he just had to state, plain and simple (as for virtually all other amateur engines): the stuff is FREE. Period. He might as well GPL his engine (what would be EXTREMELY good for the engine quality and capabilities) and do lots of other good things but instead he decided from the very beginning to aim for the big money. And I do mean BIG. (What. of course, does not imply he will ever succeed - I'd rather bet on the opposite.)

Let's examine one of the leading arguments of this thread: the alternatives "free for non-commercial, extremely expensive for (quasi) commercial" and "cheap for everybody". But WHY a those the ONLY alternatives? Why can't we talk about "free for non-commercial, cheap for everybody else?" I'll tell you why: because this last one promises only SMALL money (also in reality it COULD bring BIG). And that false alternative was set by Mr. Mnemonic himself: "Of course, I can understand this scheme [fixed price] - many people start their games, not many finish them." In other words he's just musing on different ways of making the SAME money - either collect them from everybody or from the few most successful, but he doesn't even consider a possibility of making LESS money. ("The price is 100 bucks but you don't have to pay it until you make that 100 bucks because otherwise it wouldn't be fair.") But not just that, a little later he adds: "The problem is those products are way too expensive for this approach [fixed price for tools] to work. Yep, VC++ is far from cheap, so is Photoshop, 3DS Max, etc. Also, and more importantly, they sell many more units than any game engine ever will." Sorry, man, but why should I appreciate your aspirations to become the next Bill Gates? Yes, those products are way to expensive and, yes, they sell much broader than yours ever will. And that's precisely WHY their owners are "filthy rich" while you will never be. But you know what? It's completely OK with me. I'm not wishing you to become filthy (or even just) rich and I'm not gonna apologize for that. (As a matter of fact, I'd rather prefer nobody was rich.)

Now, that we cleared out the nouveau riche stuff, let's talk about "fairness" business. That's how Mr. Mnemonic sees it: "We share the risk, we share the gain. You can think about it as of the engine developer being a part of your development team." Sounds nice but only until the engine developer IS a member of the team so his work (along with work of other team members) belong to the TEAM. But that's not what Mr. Mnemonic proposes, He wants to share in other people's work, but he insists on his exclusive rights for his own piece which he could sell again and again by becoming "a member" of other teams. Or you can look at it from the different perspective: what would be the ultimate result of this development if everything goes OK and luck will be on Mr. Mnemonic's side? I'll tell you: he will get a commercial-grade engine that he might indeed license for hundreds of thousands (millions, combined) of bucks. Well, good for him. But the question remains: would he be ever there without help of this community of amateur developers? We (I assume a hypothetical case I joined the community and am developing my games using WME) helped him debug his crap, we gave him ideas, how to improve it, we advertised his product, etc, etc, etc. There would be NO product without us, so where is OUR share? Will Mr. Mnemonic to fly to everybody of us to hand a fat suitcase full of money? I seriously doubt that. We will, most likely, remain a bunch of amateurs who in the best case made a couple of grands all together and actually PAID Mr. Mnemonic for the dubious privilege of helping him to become filthy rich. So why should Mr. Mnemonic share in our (hypothetical) personal success that he helped to achieve if he refuses to share with us in his personal success in which we helped him? I see nothing "fair" about it. Nothing at all.

Let's put it strait, folks: we ARE amateurs here, all of us. Including Mr. Mnemonic. If we (game developers) were professionals, developing real (i.e. not quasi) commercial games we wouldn't even consider going with WME, we would go with PROVEN commercial-grade engines that were used in TLJ, Siberia and games like that - we would have money to pay for them upfront and we wouldn't have time to struggle with not fully debugged, lacking functionality engine. Or we would hire a few programmers to develop an engine to our precise specs that would give us en edge over competitors. Likewise, if Mr. Mnemonic was a professional, he wouldn't bother with us, he'd sell his engine to respectable companies that are able to pay a hundred grands up front. But, you know, I kinda like it that way. I do prefer that we create games for GAMES, for the people that would play them, not for the money they might or might not to bring us. And I welcome Mr. Mnemonic to do just the same: to develop his engine for the sake of it, for the people that would use it (i.e. for us), not for the money it might or might not bring him.

You said that money destroy civilization. That's true. At least, they sure destroying this community - well, you might consider OldCoder and myself unworthy potential members, but still, we might become part of it but money matters are preventing that. And I regret that. So I have a practical proposal how we can BE a community and not allow money to interfere into our relations: let's remain AMATEURS, let's not squabble over the monies that most likely will never materialize. In particular, let's agree on this terms:

1. Whatever we're doing here it's not for money but for the enjoyment of doing it. We already have all the gratification we are seeking so we do NOT need any additional "gratification" measured in dollars and cents. Thus:

2. We grant Mr. Mnemonic (and each other) an unlimited rights to play all of our current and future games. For FREE.

3. Mr. Mnemonic grants us an unlimited rights to create games with the current and all future versions of his engine. For FREE.

4. If somebody do become filthy rich - like selling a million copies of the game or finding a company that'd like to license an engine for million bucks, he or she brings us all together (Prague sounds good and appropriate) and serves Champaign with caviar. For FREE.

5. That's it.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Zorro on April 29, 2003, 06:03:38 PM
20%!!! You gotta be kidding!  ;D

And since it's a percentage of the PRICE, authors pay all production, packaging, and distribution costs. Plus games are usually developed by SEVERAL persons. All that means Mr. Mnemonic would make MORE money than actual game developers on EVERY game. 20%!!! Even for a commercial engine I consider 5% - from ACTUAL PROFITS - an overkill. What about 1% after $10,000 profit? And even that I'd call a filthy greediness.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: ZackDoneo on April 29, 2003, 06:03:42 PM
I think your argument does have some good points, and I agree with much of it. However, you directly contradicted yourself toward the end - you said "And I welcome Mr. Mnemonic to do just the same: to develop his engine for the sake of it, for the people that would use it (i.e. for us), not for the money it might or might not bring him".

However. This makes no sense at all, considering you are also stating that you may want to sell your own work. That's fine, respectable even. But shouldn't Mnemonic get money if you get money? He's perfectly willing, I believe, to let those who plan to make -no- money off their work (yes, I'm changing it to "work", because of odnorf's point about it not being just a game-making program) by making it freeware, to use his program free of charge.

But the minute money comes into it, it only becomes proper business procedure that he gets a little as well. He does not appear to have any corporate aims whatsoever - those who do have such goals are evident simply -because- they charge $100 dollars straight off. They could care less if you're not going to do anything with it. They sometimes provide 'trials', which are just that. They have some time-limit, or limited features. He's not doing any of that. Free-to-use, percentage-to-sell.

So, if you earn money by using his program to make something else, it's only reasonable he gain money for the continual use of his program. If, by any miracle, you do make a million dollars, it will be because of his program. Advertisements, fans, all that - they have nothing without his program. It's a mutual relationship. Such mutual relationships require benefits on both sides. So, when you start benefitting even more, so does he. Simply because of the fact that while you -may- have created the same program using another base similar to Wintermute, you did not - and I can not say whether it would even be similar, using different programs.

Microsoft was even worse. They bought DOS off a couple of programmers for maybe a few grand (not sure of the figure). Those programmers lost all rights to it. Then along comes the crappy little Windows add-on... And suddenly, it's this huge corporation that's got its grubby little hands in everything. And the little programmers are forgotten.

While this is certainly legal, it's not exactly something that anyone but Microsoft enjoyed for long. However - would Microsoft have gone anywhere without DOS to begin with? I don't know... possibly, but probably not.

It's rather understandable to me that those programmers might be a little disturbed, upset, etc. Possibly wishing they hadn't sold DOS. Perhaps Mnemonic does not wish to have that error.

Money in this kind of venture is extremely complicated, but sometimes it does come up. Obviously. So, perhaps he's making a bad move, but it's actually probably a smart move in the end - I wouldn't want to end up like the makers of DOS either. Left in the dirt, while the people who bought their OS benefitted enormously.

Wouldn't you do something similar? While I also hate even the concept of money, it is a fact of life that is rather... 'difficult' to change. So, to get anything, you have to have these little things called 'dollars'. I wish I could utterly destroy the creators of the concept of money.

I don't know Mnemonics money situation, but if it's anything like mine, he's going to try to get money whereever he can simply to survive. Survival really isn't that great, but... Anyway. In the unlikely event that someone makes a boat-load of money through his program, it's reasonable, understandable, and acceptable to me that Mnemonic gets money as well. You would be nowhere without him, and may even do the same in his situation - he puts hard work into this as well, just as you may put hard work into whatever plans you have. Not exactly easy creating something like Wintermute with any degree of dependancy or success...

So, again, I state: Mnemonic is making this program. You use it. You make money off his program, he gets money for it. Common sense.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: odnorf on April 29, 2003, 06:05:44 PM
And I presume, you count myself such yellow-devil-worshipping kind of person as well. Am I right? However, I completely agree with you - I also believe that money destroys civilization and I like those money rascals no more than you.

First of all you make it sound like I said "I HATE all people who..." when I just said that "I don't like.....". And to answer your question "No", I don't count you. You said your opinion and there were good points in what you said. I just don't agree with it... You didn't come here to compain for a product you are not going to use and you didn't say that "Money makes the word go round." which for me is a stupid sentence. But if you really believed that I said that for you then I apologize to you...

I also strongly object the notion that it was ME who started this thread. Well, technically speaking it was me, but as OldCoder absolutely correctly pointed out, if not me, it was bound to be started by somebody else.

Nothing wrong with you starting this thread. I never blamed anyone for posting here (How could I do that?... It's not even my forum...) You had suggestion to make & questions to ask about the licence and this place (the forum) is for that.

Could I avoid that? No. Could our wonderful Mr. Mnemonic prevent it? Sure as Heaven - he just had to state, plain and simple (as for virtually all other amateur engines): the stuff is FREE. Period.

In the faq he is saying that the engine is free for free games and will cost money if you go commercial. All other amateur (I don't like this term) engines? Go check AGAST for example.

He might as well GPL his engine (what would be EXTREMELY good for the engine quality and capabilities) and do lots of other good things

What "free software" has to do with "opensource software"? It's two different terms...

but instead he decided from the very beginning to aim for the big money. And I do mean BIG. (What. of course, does not imply he will ever succeed - I'd rather bet on the opposite.)

I'd like you to "quote" that mnemonic said that. If you can't then you make it up.

Let's examine one of the leading arguments of this thread: the alternatives "free for non-commercial, extremely expensive for (quasi) commercial" and "cheap for everybody".

Where did you find this line (except the free for non-commercial part)? Please give me like because I can't fine it anywhere.

Sorry, man, but why should I appreciate your aspirations to become the next Bill Gates?

He said that too I guess....e?

(As a matter of fact, I'd rather prefer nobody was rich.)

At least there is one thing that we agree :)

We (I assume a hypothetical case I joined the community and am developing my games using WME) helped him debug his crap,

Yeah, very mature... you just cursed a computer program...

we gave him ideas, how to improve it, we advertised his product, etc, etc, etc. There would be NO product without us, so where is OUR share?

I will have a better engine for my games (amateur or commercial).

Will Mr. Mnemonic to fly to everybody of us to hand a fat suitcase full of money? I seriously doubt that. We will, most likely, remain a bunch of amateurs who in the best case made a couple of grands all together and actually PAID Mr. Mnemonic for the dubious privilege of helping him to become filthy rich.

We will help him to become rich? You said before that he will never be rich...

Let's put it strait, folks: we ARE amateurs here, all of us. Including Mr. Mnemonic. If we (game developers) were professionals, developing real (i.e. not quasi) commercial games we wouldn't even consider going with WME, we would go with PROVEN commercial-grade engines that were used in TLJ, Siberia and games like that

It seems that have never downloaded the engine 'cause in this case you would know what the engine is capable of.

Likewise, if Mr. Mnemonic was a professional, he wouldn't bother with us, he'd sell his engine to respectable companies that are able to pay a hundred grands up front.

First you accuse him of being professional who only think about money and then now you say that he is an amateur.

develop his engine for the sake of it, for the people that would use it (i.e. for us), not for the money it might or might not bring him.

He is doing that... I am developing an adventure game now without to have to buy an engine.

You said that money destroy civilization. That's true. At least, they sure destroying this community - well, you might consider OldCoder and myself unworthy potential members,

So, when someone argues with you then he "considers you an unworthy potential memner"? I don't know if you think like that but I don't. You just make your points and I make mine.

In particular, let's agree on this terms:

1. Whatever we're doing here it's not for money but for the enjoyment of doing it. We already have all the gratification we are seeking so we do NOT need any additional "gratification" measured in dollars and cents.

I am creating an adventure game now that it will be free (maybe even opensource).

2. We grant Mr. Mnemonic (and each other) an unlimited rights to play all of our current and future games. For FREE.

3. Mr. Mnemonic grants us an unlimited rights to create games with the current and all future versions of his engine. For FREE.

Why should we do that? I someone wants to creat a game he is free to do so... even if it's commercial game.

4. If somebody do become filthy rich - like selling a million copies of the game or finding a company that'd like to license an engine for million bucks, he or she brings us all together (Prague sounds good and appropriate) and serves Champaign with caviar. For FREE.

I promise that.

5. That's it.

OK.... We both make our points so please let's stop here and start doing what we like... creating adventures.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Zorro on April 29, 2003, 06:34:52 PM
== What we are dealing here is not an "amateur game creation program"... trust me... You can do with WME whatever you see in most big commercial 2D adventure games (except the realtime 3D characters...yet...) ==

Yes, it is. And even not because of the lack of 3D (what is a MUST for today's REAL commercial engine). First of all, commercial engine must be RELIABLE. In other words, it should work. Not just work, but work on all imaginable configurations. What means it should be actually tested with all major sound and video cards, memory sizes, CPUs, Windows versions, etc. under STRESS CONDITIONS. Additionally, it would be desirable if it worked on other platforms, like Apple and all major consoles. Second, from the commercial engine I expect either EXTREME flexibility or WELL DOCUMENTED source code (preferably - both) to be able to do what I REALLY want to do. Third, I expect a full working source of a real or example game that demonstrates all techniques. Fourth, did I mention good, up to date documentation? Fifth, most important, I do NOT expect to find myself dead in the water because Mr. Mnemonic was killed in the car accident or just decided to direct his efforts at something else (as many other amateurs did). What translates into a stable company with several programmers, sizable cash reserve and proven commitment to the product (i.e. it must already invest into it enough money to not abandon it without very good cause). Finally, I expect a REAL technical support.

All this, as you might guess costs money. BIG money. Thus - a high price tag on commercial engines. They might be STARTED in a garage, but to become a commercial product they MUST move into a nice office in a techno park.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: odnorf on April 29, 2003, 06:36:28 PM
(I created a new post because my internet connection has a lot of problems now and I have problems editing my previous post)

I just wanted to say that I believe that we have said our opinions on this subject (maybe more "loud" than we should) and It's a good idea not to go any further.

Nevertheless if someone got offended with what *I* said please send me a private message and I will apologize to him.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Mnemonic on April 29, 2003, 07:51:57 PM
I also strongly object the notion that it was ME who started this thread. Well, technically speaking it was me, but as OldCoder absolutely correctly pointed out, if not me, it was bound to be started by somebody else. That's because in the essence it was started by no else but Mr. Mnemonic himself with his now infamous "will cost you $$$".
That's right and I don't have a problem discussing the topic on this forum. Of course I want to know people's opinions. Whatever they are.

Sure as Heaven - he just had to state, plain and simple (as for virtually all other amateur engines): the stuff is FREE.
So, this is what it's all about? You want me to give you the engine for free? And you are wrong, the licencing of the other development tools varies.


but instead he decided from the very beginning to aim for the big money. And I do mean BIG. (What. of course, does not imply he will ever succeed - I'd rather bet on the opposite.)
This is just ridiculous. I won't event comment it (*again*).


("The price is 100 bucks but you don't have to pay it until you make that 100 bucks because otherwise it wouldn't be fair.")
Sure, that would be perfectly fair for you. But shouldn't the engine developer have guarantees too? No, of course not. He just wrote a piece of crappy buggy software, it probably took him no more than two weekends to hack it together and now he wants to take our hard earned money. While we are using his product only because we don't have enough money to purchase a commercial grade engine. So he can kiss our asses...

Ok, I don't wanna become fithy rich, but I don't wanna become other people's source of cheap (prefferably free) labour neither!


We (I assume a hypothetical case I joined the community and am developing my games using WME) helped him debug his crap, we gave him ideas, how to improve it, we advertised his product, etc, etc, etc. There would be NO product without us, so where is OUR share?
Call me naive, but I thought everyone would benefit from the engine improvements. Well, obviously I was wrong. Silly me.


So I have a practical proposal how we can BE a community and not allow money to interfere into our relations: let's remain AMATEURS, let's not squabble over the monies that most likely will never materialize.
Great, there's nothing easier! Just make your game freeware and we won't have to deal with the finacial crap at all! Why don't you?



Yes, it is. And even not because of the lack of 3D (what is a MUST for today's REAL commercial engine).Finally, I expect a
.
.
.
REAL technical support.

All this, as you might guess costs money. BIG money. Thus - a high price tag on commercial engines. They might be STARTED in a garage, but to become a commercial product they MUST move into a nice office in a techno park.

So, what were you trying to say by this post? That I should stop developing WME because I'll never be able to match Microsoft's technical support and resources? Or that I should give out the engine for free because it's not worth a penny, because I'll never be able to match Microsoft's technical support and resources? Mind you, that if I *would* do that, I'd also forbid *any* commercial use of the engine (who'd want to make a commercial game on a crappy engine without proper technical support anyway?). But I won't do that because, surprisingly, you're not the only person considering using WME for a commercial project. There are others, who don't seem to be disgusted by the licencing as much as you. Probably because they don't think they are LucasArts and they realize wouldn't make a game like TLJ even if they had TLJ engine with all its documentation and support (do you *really* think all the commercial engines are that well documented? dream on!). They just want to make a cool game, and if everything goes right, they'll even get a few bucks for it (and if they do, they'll share a few with the guy who programmed the core of their game).

You know, some time ago I had a brief discussion with Todd Zankich (from AGAST) and he gave me an excellent advice concerning the engine users. I always remember this advice in times like this. Todd, if you are reading this by any chance, thank you! :)


And a personal note: I've lived about 12 years of my life in a country driven by a communist government. That's how I learned that communism simply doesn't work in the real world...
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Mnemonic on April 29, 2003, 08:45:29 PM
We (I assume a hypothetical case I joined the community and am developing my games using WME) helped him debug his crap, we gave him ideas, how to improve it, we advertised his product, etc, etc, etc. There would be NO product without us, so where is OUR share?

This is also a good one. Of course, you are generously leaving out one important thing. Mr. Mnemonic spend 2 years building the engine from scratch before going public with it. He added *thousands* of features to make the engine as flexible as possible. Now here comes Mr. Zorro with his kick-ass bestseller game, he will suggest... how many... ten new features? And suddenly the engine becomes commercial grade! Cool! But of course, Mr. Zorro feels to be ripped off, too bad :(

OK, I apologize to other readers, this thead has became really nasty. I know it's pointless because Zorro obviously won't use WME anyway, but I need to defend myself when being constantly attacked this way :(
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Zorro on April 29, 2003, 09:16:18 PM
== I don't know Mnemonics money situation, but if it's anything like mine, ==

Well, let's assume, just for argument sake, your situations are identical. So I could speck directly to you...

== he's going to try to get money wherever he can simply to survive. ==

I can understand that but, honestly, what exactly "survival" means in this particular case? Does it includes Champaign and caviar? In a more (in a sense) philosophical way... There were times when mere survival wasn't a problem. So what are you going to do in this life, just survive or try to do something more positive about this fundamental problem?

== This makes no sense at all, considering you are also stating that you may want to sell your own work. ==

Nope. What I said, that I'd probably, HAVE TO sell my work because it's a promising distribution channel. I wouldn't mind (actually, I would encourage that) if people freely distribute it in addition to sales channel. But in this particular case I never told it's wrong to sell the engine WHEN it becomes a commercial product. After all, am I gonna charge people who beta-test my games? No. More likely I'd say them "Thank you very much for all your help!". That doesn't mean they necessary didn't enjoy playing, but the main beneficiary was ME - they helped ME to create a game that now could be sold (if I wish so). Now, what about saying "Thanks!" to those who's beta-testing this engine instead of asking for money? One needs actual games to test the engine not less than game developers need it to produce game. It's ALREADY a mutually beneficial relationship. There might be no games without engine, but what's absolutely sure there would be no viable engine without those who volunteered to test it in real development. It's a big question, who benefits more.

== That's fine, ==

Considering circumstances - yes.

== respectable even. ==

Here we somewhat disagree...

== they charge $100 dollars straight off. They could care less if you're not going to do anything with it. ==

What do YOU care about? OK, they make money. What is fine, as you put it. Do YOU have any other agenda? Just don't mistake different business-models for different agendas. Well, may be you DO have something higher in mind I fail to see so far, then explain, what it might be.

== Microsoft was even worse. ... It's rather understandable to me that those programmers might be a little disturbed, upset, etc. ==

So, now we're going to pity all the programmers in the world... Well, that's OK since I'm of the same kind. But why did you start with those poor guys? After all, I don't think they cashed less than any other programmer working for Microsoft FOR SALARY. As a matter of fact, I believe they've cashed much more - that's if they really were the owners of DOS, not just the same salaried programmers, working for the boss (if the latter is the case, they, probably, were rehired by MS for better salary). But in any case they (or their bosses) failed (in a capitalist meaning) not as programmers but as businessmen and I have absolutely no pity for their kind, whatever happens to them.

== Wouldn't you do something similar? ==

Circumstances... Temptations... It's a question of trusting yourself. Sometimes such trust is betrayed...

== While I also hate even the concept of money... ==

Well, it looks like Mr. Mnemonic strongly disagree with you.

== I wish I could utterly destroy the creators of the concept of money. ==

Now, that's interesting! Can't you elaborate?
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Mnemonic on April 29, 2003, 09:24:54 PM
== While I also hate even the concept of money... ==

Well, it looks like Mr. Mnemonic strongly disagree with you.
Don't get me wrong. I don't think the current system is perfect. I just don't know of any better at the moment...
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Zorro on April 29, 2003, 10:12:09 PM
To ondorf:

== In the faq he is saying that... ==

Sure, but it's not what I meant. It's rather opposite.

== What "free software" has to do with "opensource software"? It's two different terms... ==

Who brought the notion "opensource software"? Definitely not me.

== Quote from: Zorro on Today at 06:26:41pm
but instead he decided from the very beginning to aim for the big money. And I do mean BIG. (What. of course, does not imply he will ever succeed - I'd rather bet on the opposite.)
 
I'd like you to "quote" that mnemonic said that. If you can't then you make it up. ==

I believe, I explained myself enough. However, if there are any objections... Let's ask Mr. Mnemonic what HE is considering a "small money" - the upper limit - and than we decide (1) if we agree about what is small and what is big and (2) what the payment plans might be that provides for such kind of profit.

== Quote from: Zorro on Today at 06:26:41pm
Let's examine one of the leading arguments of this thread: the alternatives "free for non-commercial, extremely expensive for (quasi) commercial" and "cheap for everybody".
 
Where did you find this line (except the free for non-commercial part)? Please give me like because I can't fine it anywhere. ==

Where did you learned that quotation marks always mean quotation? You yourself used them to in different context just a few lines above. Anyway, do you have any objections to the MEANING of what I said?

== Quote from: Zorro on Today at 06:26:41pm
Sorry, man, but why should I appreciate your aspirations to become the next Bill Gates?

He said that too I guess....e? ==

Absolutely. The whole point of all this discussion (which I'd prefer to avoid) is "what would happen if somebody gets REALLY rich using this engine." And Mr. Mnemonic's point is (I'm lazy to search but he did say so, albeit in slightly different words): "If somebody became millionaire using my engine I want to become millionaire as well." So I'm asking the question again: why should I appreciate Mr. Mnemonic's aspirations to become filthy rich? You see, it's rather ethical than practical question.

== Quote from: Zorro on Today at 06:26:41pm
(As a matter of fact, I'd rather prefer nobody was rich.)

At least there is one thing that we agree ==

Are we? So why you're protecting Mr. Mnemonic's "right" to become rich? Especially he's obviously not sharing our(?) views on the subject.

== Yeah, very mature... you just cursed a computer program... ==

Do it every day (workday, I mean).

== Quote from: Zorro on Today at 06:26:41pm
we gave him ideas, how to improve it, we advertised his product, etc, etc, etc. There would be NO product without us, so where is OUR share?

I will have a better engine for my games (amateur or commercial). ==

That would cost you more and more and more... every subsequent version.

However, I might say the same about Mr. Mnemonic: he will have more good games to play. How about that?

== We will help him to become rich? You said before that he will never be rich... ==

IF he become rich. Once again, we're not talking about real money, but rather about moral questions surrounding some ephemeral money.

== It seems that have never downloaded the engine 'cause in this case you would know what the engine is capable of. ==

That I answered elsewhere.

== First you accuse him of being professional who only think about money and then now you say that he is an amateur. ==

He is amateur aiming for big money. Not that uncommon situation.

== Quote from: Zorro on Today at 06:26:41pm
develop his engine for the sake of it, for the people that would use it (i.e. for us), not for the money it might or might not bring him.

He is doing that... I am developing an adventure game now without to have to buy an engine. ==

And BG gives away IE. Does that makes him "developing IE for the sake of it?" Sheesh!

== So, when someone argues with you then he "considers you an unworthy potential member"? ==

Not at all. But how could I be sure about you?

== I am creating an adventure game now that it will be free (maybe even opensource). ==

Cool.

== Quote from: Zorro on Today at 06:26:41pm
2. We grant Mr. Mnemonic (and each other) an unlimited rights to play all of our current and future games. For FREE.

3. Mr. Mnemonic grants us an unlimited rights to create games with the current and all future versions of his engine. For FREE.
 
Why should we do that? I someone wants to create a game he is free to do so... even if it's commercial game. ==

Just my proposal. And how you words contradict mine?
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: odnorf on April 29, 2003, 10:51:55 PM
To Zorro:

Oooo, please, you have said that you don't like the licence a lot of times. Don't you think that one time is enought?

And a few quick answers about what you said:
1)You said about GPL (don't you?). Isn't that opensource?
2)You keep says that mnemonic says "blah...blah..." but what he really thinking was something else... Don't tell me that you aren't guessing.
3)And I am not pretecting Mnemonic's (why is this Mr. thing? You don't call me Mr. I don't call you Mr. This is just a forum. Don't you think that you are a little ironic here? Do you thing that this the correct approach when talking?) right to become rich. I just don't think that WME's licence is as bad as you think. It's logical and fair. He creates a product. I use it and I earn money, he gets money, I don't earn money, he doesn't.
4)Let's not make this political. I have understand that I have different political views than mnemonic. If I had created WME then I am quite sure that I will have chosen a different licence. But that doesn't tell anything. It doesn't mean than the current licence is bad (I'm using the engine so...) or that Mnemonic is bad and I am good.
5)He said that he is working in this engine for 2 years (and that's true... If you don't believe me I can tell you that he had the first betas at August 2002 -Including realtime 3D characters rendering). He doesn't worth to earn some money? I mean... think of it... 2 years... he hasn't created simple pong game...
6)It seems that what you are trying to do is make us (and especially me) argue with mnemonic. I can tell you that this is not going to happen with me (at least not about the licence). You posts (with the same things over and over) starts to look like trolling to me.
7)Please... Let's stop this. Make up your mind and decide if you'd like to use this engine or not with the current licence. We have a small community here that we all like...
8)If you want engines with other licences then you could try those:
sludge (you will love this one, it has a fixed-price)
mad (it's opensource)
lixoo (it's opensource but incomplete... but I guess until you have created everything you need for your game - script, puzzles, characters, backgrounds, music, etc - it will be ready)
9)Please (again), let's stop this. If you have something to tell me, send me a privete message and I am sure that we can solve everything.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Zorro on April 29, 2003, 11:20:39 PM
== So, this is what it's all about? You want me to give you the engine for free? And you are wrong, the licencing of the other development tools varies. ==

As you might remember, I already offered to $100. However I would definitely appreciate and highly respect you if you started something  like "GNU adventure engine" project.

== This is just ridiculous. I won't event comment it (*again*). ==

But why? Just tell us where, in your opinion, is a line between small and big money.

== Sure, that would be perfectly fair for you. But shouldn't the engine developer have guarantees too? No, of course not. ==

Why not? You're guaranteed your hundred bucks. It's not enough for you? So how much is enough - that's all I'm asking! But the only thing you've answered so far is, in effect, "anything isn't enough - I want to make as much as possible." Am I wrong? If so, tell us the final figure.

== He just wrote a piece of crappy buggy software, it probably took him no more than two weekends to hack it together ==

I never put it THAT way.

== and now he wants to take our hard earned money. ==

Well, don't you?

== While we are using his product only because we don't have enough money to purchase a commercial grade engine. ==

Sounds defamatory but isn't it true?

== So he can kiss our asses... ==

Of course, you'd prefer other way around... I, however, would prefer nobody kisses nobody's asses.

== Ok, I don't wanna become fithy rich, but I don't wanna become other people's source of cheap (prefferably free) labour neither! ==

Fair enough. So what IS you definition of "not that cheap" labor? How much money you WANT to make with your engine?

== Call me naive, but I thought everyone would benefit from the engine improvements. Well, obviously I was wrong. Silly me. ==

Well, as I already pointed elsewhere it depends. It's not that there are not good engines around. The problem is they're WAY TOO EXPENSIVE. Could it happen, that at some point your improved engine will become so-o damn good that we'll just not be able to use it - we all got pretty tight budgets, you know...

== Great, there's nothing easier! Just make your game freeware and we won't have to deal with the finacial crap at all! Why don't you? ==

I think, I already explained that. Because adventure games are usually rather big (measured in gigs) so downloading them - not an option. Would you consider a "freeware" game that is sold in stores but that specifically states it can be legally copied for free? But even that might be impossible: there is indeed one such game - developed by the Pentagon - but retailes (and game publishes) might don't like somebody else try the same.

== So, what were you trying to say by this post? That I should stop developing WME because I'll never be able to match Microsoft's... ==

Not at all. Quite opposite - I ask you NOT to became Microsoft.

== And a personal note: I've lived about 12 years of my life in a country driven by a communist government. ==

Well, well, well... Now we went political.

He-ey, ZackDoneo-o... Are you listening? It isn't like Mr. Mnemonic is in your shoes at all. It's not sounding like "survival problem" - rather "greedy capitalist wannabe problem."

== That's how I learned that communism simply doesn't work in the real world... ==

I see you were a pretty smart kid: just 12 years old - and so mature conclusions based on the personal experience. I bet you started your studies at age 4 and by 8 already mastered Marx, Keins, Ain Rand and all other thinkers that came before you.

Care to share with us your thoughts?

BTW, talking about commmunism. I've recently found a nice piece on the subject. It's called "The Economics of Star Trek"
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Trek-Marxism.html
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Jerrot on April 29, 2003, 11:24:57 PM
Aye, Mr. Mr. Zorro is back from his search for the perfect commercial engine, fully documented, running bugfree on all computers including gameboy, x-box and UMTS, which costs about - hm, 100 bucks... ? Including all source-codes of course.

OK, I don't want to discuss this anymore, everyone described his point of view and it seems, Mr. Mr. Zorro, you cannot accept we don't want to follow YOUR opinion. But no, Mr. Mr. Zorro has to get impudent and insulting again and again, I'm not even sure he is aware about this... Get the point: you did NOTHING but crying around about licence fees here, Mnemonic developes WME. You should pay $100 for the time I took to read your crap. I promise I will not take a percentage for following posts from you (for I'll ignore them!). Just go and buy some commercial engine and flame the authors if you find a bug. If they will answer you. Or even read you.

Good luck anyway, sorry for getting that nasty, but your discussion style just got too ridiculous to follow with arguments.  >:(
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: odnorf on April 29, 2003, 11:40:56 PM
To zorro:

I don't think that this is the place to talk about politics. I don't feel the same way as mnenonic do about communism. As a matter of fact I have a lot of friends that are communists and, politicaly speaking, I am (very, very) closer to them than with mnemonic. BUT what THAT has to do with WME and Mnemonic (who I consider as a friend of mine).

You are abusing the forum here and you offend people just because you don't like the licence for a program that you are not going to use. Does this look logical to you? All you have to do is to use some other engine (sludge's licence seems like the best for you, with a low fixed-price) and come back here in 2 years to see if things will evolve the way you think. Will you do that?
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Zorro on April 30, 2003, 12:24:42 AM
To Mr. Mnemonic

== Don't get me wrong. I don't think the current system is perfect. I just don't know of any better at the moment...  ==

I don't. Just don't see any practical difference between "perfect" and "the best around". On the other hand, "I hate it" is more close to "the worst around" in my book and if a person "hates even the concept of money" (s)he, probably hates the systems based solely on that very concept.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Zorro on April 30, 2003, 01:18:54 AM
to odnorf:

== Oooo, please, you have said that you don't like the licence a lot of times. Don't you think that one time is enought? ==

Actually, I said it just once. And I do believe it's enogh. But if some people continue and continue to try to convince me I'm wrong, what should I do?

== 1)You said about GPL (don't you?). Isn't that opensource? ==

No, it isn't. It's not just free, it's Free. Gosh, of all men you, with your political views should know what GPL actually means.

== 2)You keep says that mnemonic says "blah...blah..." but what he really thinking was something else... Don't tell me that you aren't guessing. ==

No, I don't. If something's unclear? I ASK. Well, sometimes he doesn't answer, but the refusal to answer is usually an answer in itself.

== 3)And I am not pretecting Mnemonic's (why is this Mr. thing? ==

Well, isn't it just polite to address in such a way a person aiming to become a capitalist?

== You don't call me Mr. ==

And why should I? But if you care, I can address you Cmde.

== I don't call you Mr. ==

Same thing.

== right to become rich. ==

Ahem... A little contradiction with what you told one post later, don't you think?

== 4)Let's not make this political. ==

Did I ever try?

== It doesn't mean than the current licence is bad ==

Well, I still didn't see any licence except "$$$" so what can I say?

== or that Mnemonic is bad and I am good. ==

Just wondering what would happen if... OK, OK, OK, let's not talk politics.

== 5)He said that he is working in this engine for 2 years ... He doesn't worth to earn some money? ==

Did I ever said so? But if you put it anoter way: does he worth to earn millions? - the answer will be: NO. Because NOBODY worth.

== 6)It seems that what you are trying to do... ==

Not at all. As you might noticed, I already retreted from this forum. Now I've got some kind of automatic email inviting me to continue discussion what I did after I read a few new posts. Is it wrong? Am I not allowed to do so? After all, nobody forces you or anybody else reading this particular thread if you're not interested in the subject.

== 7)... We have a small community here that we all like... ==

That much I've understood already: you all like each other and don't like me. But don't worry - I'll survive.

== but I guess until you have created everything you need for your game... ==

That's right - I'm in no hurry, so why not to shop around? May be I even manage to convince Mr. Mnemonic to give up that Mr. thing?

== I don't think that this is the place to talk about politics. ==

Why not? The board description is quite clear: "Feel free to talk about anything and everything in this board."

== You are abusing the forum here ==

But of course, it's YOU who is to decide...

== and you offend people just because... ==

How do I offend people? By calling greed - greed? OK, I'm sorry about that. Next time I'll call it "entrepreneurialism", would it be OK with you?
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: ZackDoneo on April 30, 2003, 04:42:20 AM
I'm a bit ill at the moment, so I'm not exactly sure how legible or accurate my response will be, but I'll try. At least I can breathe out of both nostrils again. And I may say things that have already been said or asked, but I'm out of it...

I have a question for you, Zorro: what exactly is it that you're wanting to create that will/may become worth billions? Even modern games don't really do that well, and they have a larger market than adventure games, let alone amateur adventure games...

Side-note: Communist countries aren't exactly great places to live... Depends on how well it's initiated. I think it usually goes along the lines of trying to make everyone equal means that nobody can be rich, and it's often difficult just to keep your own food... It's complicated. Don't really feel up to reading that article at the moment - I'll do that tomorrow and give a better opinion on it...

Mnemonic: Do you still live in a communist country, out of curiousity?

I really don't see that a percentage is all that bad, really. All businesses do it. Microsoft does it. Sunsoft has, Apple, Yahoo... I'd be surprised if any business hasn't done that sort at one time or another. Even simple retail stores do it constantly.

Retail stores... we'll take a book store, for example. Someone writes a book. They get a publisher, and it's sent through to a whole bunch of bookstores. The bookstores are told "Buying price for you is 15 dollars" (this is for a hard-back, by the way). The author gets maybe 7.50 dollars for each book sold, publisher gets 7.50 as well. However, if it's left at fifteen dollars, the book store gets nothing and can't stay open. So they raise it to whatever the standard is (usually something like $20).

This is similar to the case for what Mnemonic wants. On any computer program development team, there's usually going to be programmers, artists, musicians, writers, and drudge workers, maybe a few other types. He cuts your work in half by removing most of the programming you would have to do. There's still probably some you have to do, but not nearly as much as if he hadn't provided the program.

Now, once the game is all done, they have to send it through to the publisher, who sends it on to the retail store, saying buying price is something like... $30 dollars. Retail store adds on a bit, yadda yadda, same as the book store. Then they send the publishers (or producers, whatever they're called...) their bit, and then the development team gets some money.

Now, since Mnemonic did most of the work for your programming, as well as adding in a few other features (sprite animations, all that...) he is essentially a part of your 'team'. While you may be making the game, he made the program that allows you to make it.

AGS would not allow you to sell it commercially, at least not without some credit or money to them (I'd have to check. I do -not- feel like searching around right now, but I do remember that detail... they may not allow you to sell it commercially at all... don't exactly remember completely.) and I'm fairly certain any other such program would require the same - as does Wintermute.

So. He gets a percentage, just like any development team, because he is essential to the development of your program. Unless you want to figure out how to code it all yourself, or unless I'm wrong about most such programs requiring a fee of -some- sort to sell commercially.

I'll give you a few names to check into, and see whether they're doing something similar - should be in their FAQs. AGS, MAD, and I think others on this thread mentioned more. I can't think of anymore.

It's quite normal for someone who puts two years into their work to desire something out of it.



Oh, another side-note... about Microsoft and DOS... Microsoft didn't design DOS. They bought out the owners/programmers of it, who are probably regretting greatly selling it to them. They were not on Microsoft's team, or salary, beyond the one-time sum of money. I think you can probably look it up... There's a webpage called "History of Microsoft" or something like that.



And my last note: Being sick sucks. Badly.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Zorro on April 30, 2003, 06:26:36 AM
To ZackDoneo:

== ... that will/may become worth billions? ==

I've absolutely no clue where you've got that strange idea.

== Side-note: Communist countries aren't exactly great places to live... ==

Ever tried? Care to share some bad memories with us?

== Mnemonic: Do you still live in a communist country, out of curiousity? ==

Are you THAT sick? He definitely lives NOT in Cuba.

== I really don't see that a percentage is all that bad, really. All businesses do it. Microsoft does it. ==

I, personally, think it's rather good example of not bad but EXTREMELY bad.

== On any computer program development team, there's usually going to be programmers, artists, musicians, writers, and drudge workers, maybe a few other types. ==

True. Now we're talking some meaningful stuff.

== He cuts your work in half by removing most of the programming you would have to do. ==

But here I lost you. You've just mentioned a whole bunch of people and than saying Mr. Mnemonic did a HALF of a job??? Sorry man, but my math teacher would say that if 10 people spent 2 years developing a game than each one did 10%, not 50%/

== Now, once the game is all done, they have to send it through to the publisher, who sends it on to the retail store... ==

Cool, I agree with you. So let's presume we split it roughly 3 equal parts - developers, publishers, disributors. That brings us to 33% for ALL of developers. Now, if we have something like 10 developers in a team, that makes approximally 3.3% per person. So, what should be Mr. Mnemonic's share? I agree it wouldn't be fair if he got less for his job. But don't ypu think it would be equally unfair if he get MORE? Especially MUCH more. Are we on the same page? If so, let's continue our calculations. Mr. Mnemonic, as you remember, does not, actually, works in a single team but rather services SEVERAL teams at the same time and drows his profits from ALL of them. So to give him an EQUAL share we must divide the regular developer's share by the number of simultaneously working teams. I don't think it would be an exaggeration to presume (when things finaly starts up) there will be at lest 10 teams present. That puts Mr. Mnemonic's FAIR share at 0.33% of the retail price. What is 60 TIMES less than you've suggested. I believe your illness did impact your math skills.

Now, how much would it be in the monetary figures? You've mentioned $30 per copy but that's a price of the top-level adventures. The average price is $20 and it's quite possible we'll have to cope with just $15. What makes Mr. Mnemonics share from 5 to 10 cents per sold copy. Does he agree on such royalties? Let's ask him.

== Microsoft didn't design DOS. ==

Yes, that's kinda a common knowledge.

== They bought out the owners/programmers of it, who are probably regretting greatly selling it to them. ==

I don't think so. DOS, honestly, was not just crap, but a REAL crap. But much more important, by that time IBM alredy has chosen Microsoft so for that guys the alternatives were not to sell DOS to Microsoft for small bucks or to IBM for BIG BUCKS, but to sell it to Microsoft for whatever it was pleased to pay or to sell it to nobody at all. Does it sucks? Of course! But it IS capitalism and it's not me who's defending it here.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: odnorf on April 30, 2003, 10:18:00 AM
Actually, I said it just once. And I do believe it's enogh. But if some people continue and continue to try to convince me I'm wrong, what should I do?

Read my posts.. I try to stop this... AND YOU DIDN"T WANT TO. I was polite and you don't. I quote what you said the answer to that and you just answer without first understand what I was saying.

== 1)You said about GPL (don't you?). Isn't that opensource? ==

No, it isn't. It's not just free, it's Free. Gosh, of all men you, with your political views should know what GPL actually means.

Did I say "Free"? I don't believe that GPL is free (well, BSD is...). You don't seem to understand the it seems that politically we are very close but that doesn' mean that I have to offend people and don't know were to stop.What I said is GPL is opensource...
check http://www.opensource.org/licenses/gpl-license.php

== 3)And I am not pretecting Mnemonic's (why is this Mr. thing? ==

Well, isn't it just polite to address in such a way a person aiming to become a capitalist?

No, it's just ironic.

== 4)Let's not make this political. ==

Did I ever try?

Well, you called mnemonic a capitalist monster that want's to steal you money. Wouldn't you call that political.

== It doesn't mean than the current licence is bad ==

Well, I still didn't see any licence except "$$$" so what can I say?

Download the pacjage and you will find the licence. I can e-mail it to you if you like.

== or that Mnemonic is bad and I am good. ==

Just wondering what would happen if... OK, OK, OK, let's not talk politics.

No, I would like to here what you have to say buy, PLEASE, in a personnal message.

== 6)It seems that what you are trying to do... ==

Not at all. As you might noticed, I already retreted from this forum. Now I've got some kind of automatic email inviting me to continue discussion what I did after I read a few new posts. Is it wrong? Am I not allowed to do so? After all, nobody forces you or anybody else reading this particular thread if you're not interested in the subject.

OK, do you agree to stop this here. I will ever let you answer last to what I said. What do you think about that?

== 7)... We have a small community here that we all like... ==

That much I've understood already: you all like each other and don't like me. But don't worry - I'll survive.

Did I say that I don't like you? It seems that politically I really like you, and I'd like you to send me an e-mail to talk further if you like. I just don't like what you are doing here.

== but I guess until you have created everything you need for your game... ==

That's right - I'm in no hurry, so why not to shop around? May be I even manage to convince Mr. Mnemonic to give up that Mr. thing?

But you have tried. Isn't that enough? Mnemonic heard your opinions.

== I don't think that this is the place to talk about politics. ==

Why not? The board description is quite clear: "Feel free to talk about anything and everything in this board."

I didn't say that it's illegal. What I said is that it just doesn't fit well. E-mail me and we can talk politics as much as you like. You know, all my life is about politics.
If you decide to send me an e-mail please use my very personnal (only for m friends) mail : odnorf at master.math.upatras.gr

Are you THAT sick? He definitely lives NOT in Cuba.

Well if you live in cuba I can understand you now more clearer and I really envy you. You happen to be lucky and living in the only communism coutry (except Russia at the time of Lenin) that is really a communism country. You know, here in europe all the east countries that are supposed to had communism in the past years they really didn't. The people who where in power said that they were communists but if fact they were facists. (All those are *My* and only *MY* political views.)
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Mnemonic on April 30, 2003, 07:27:27 PM
Mnemonic: Do you still live in a communist country, out of curiousity?
Nope, after 40 years of bringing the communism to life, leaving the country economically and morally crippled, my homeland has trasformed into a parliamentary democracy in 1989... with all its pro's and con's.

But to be really objective here, I'll just quote odnorf:

The people who where in power said that they were communists but if fact they were facists.
Yes, they just used the communist ideology. I guess they may have as well used any other ideology out there (with the same final results). So when I blaming communism, I'm probably actually blaming any kind of propaganda, used by one small group of people to manipulate and oppress the others and to gain as much as possible out of it.

But if you ask for my very personal opinion, I don't think the human society is ready for the *real* communism neither... yet.


EDIT: Boy! I can't believe I'm discussing politics on the WME forum! :o
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Zorro on April 30, 2003, 08:26:28 PM
To odnorf:

== Read my posts.. I try to stop this... ==

Then you've chosen a wrong way. If you REALLY want stop something, just STOP. That's all it takes.

== Did I say "Free"? I don't believe that GPL is free (well, BSD is...). ... What I said is GPL is opensource... ==

Read the legalese more attentively. However, in plain English GPL means that you're FREE to do with software whatever you want with a single important exception: you can't appropriate it. That, of course, includes freedom to use it without, well... for free. Actually, you're free even to sell it (even if it was written by somebody else) if you find a person or organization willing to pay for it - there is nothing wrong or contradictory about it: software is still free, but media, packaging, delivery, installation, support - are something that still costs money. One other freedom is to study and modify free software what indeed implies open source but if we're talking about "open source initiative" in itself it means only that - you're given a source code without any freedoms to use it as YOU please. "Open source software" is still copyrighted by its legal owners and can be legally "closed" at any time, never mind that you have no rights to use (copy, distribute, etc.) it without proper license. On the other hand GPL'ed software is "copylefted" what means it's public domain and it (or any part of it) can't be appropriated under any circumstances. In particular that means that any additions, modifications, and products, based on GPL'ed software (see LGPL, though) are AUTOMATICALLY enter public domain and become GPL'ed at the moment of publication. (That's why BG calls GPL a "highly contaminating virus" - it immediately infects everything it touches.)

== No, it's just ironic. ==

:)

== Well, you called mnemonic a capitalist monster that want's to steal you money. Wouldn't you call that political. ==

No, not "monster". And I never spoke about MY money in particular. And not even about "stealing". Actually, if "property is a theft", what's the point of talking about stealing money?

== Download the pacjage and you will find the licence. I can e-mail it to you if you like. ==

Just did. But it says something like "To obtain a different license for commercial use, contact..." Trying. Without any visible success.

== No, I would like to here what you have to say buy, PLEASE, in a personnal message. ==

OK. When I return home.

== OK, do you agree to stop this here. I will ever let you answer last to what I said. What do you think about that? ==

I'm not sure I've understood you. Did you mean "I will Never let you..."?

== Did I say that I don't like you? ==

Well, not directly...

== It seems that politically I really like you, and I'd like you to send me an e-mail to talk further if you like. ==

Will do.

== I just don't like what you are doing here. ==

Just talking. What's wrong about it? No, really, can I repeat it once more? NOBODY IS FORCED TO READ THIS THREAD.

== But you have tried. Isn't that enough? Mnemonic heard your opinions. ==

Yes. And he even expressed his desire to hear different opinions on the subject so what's your problem? It's HIS forum so if he decides the discussion MUST be over he might close this thread, delete it, ban myself, you, or whoever else... As of yourself, you're free to stop reading it if you don't like it.

== Well if you live in cuba ==

Nah...

== The people who where in power said that they were communists but if fact they were facists. ==

You're wrong one way (about Cuba) or another (about the rest of the socialist countries) - they're not that different as Western "left anticommunists" like to believe. This, however, is a large separate topic.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Zorro on April 30, 2003, 08:32:40 PM
== So when I blaming communism, I'm probably actually blaming any kind of propaganda, used by one small group of people to manipulate and oppress the others and to gain as much as possible out of it. ==

I can understand that. But why call it "communism"? Capitalists are much smaller group and manipulate and oppress the others much more (I'm even not talking about personal gains).
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: odnorf on April 30, 2003, 11:05:40 PM
== OK, do you agree to stop this here. I will ever let you answer last to what I said. What do you think about that? ==

I'm not sure I've understood you. Did you mean "I will Never let you..."?

What I said is that you can have the last word and we can stop this (about the WME).

== It seems that politically I really like you, and I'd like you to send me an e-mail to talk further if you like. ==

Will do.

Thanks :)

== Well if you live in cuba ==

Nah...

Sorry, I hope that you didn't offend.

== The people who where in power said that they were communists but if fact they were facists. ==

You're wrong one way (about Cuba) or another (about the rest of the socialist countries) - they're not that different as Western "left anticommunists" like to believe. This, however, is a large separate topic.

Well, *I* believe that they are different cases (and socialism is not the same thing as communism... they are different stages in the same road). And I am non an "anticommunist"... This maybe sound strange to you : I believe communism can be a good thing BUT it's not free enought for me. What I have in my mind goes further than that when it cames to freedom...

PS. About the GPL : Well it seems that we are not really making sense. You used it first. Then I asked you what "free" software (not as the "free" = no money -- but the more complicated political "free" term ... well that's my mistake... I should have talk that) has to do with opensource. Then you said that you didn't speak about GPL. Here you really lost me.. then... then... then... I reallt don't think that we make any sense :) And I still haven't understand if you think that GPL is free (not the "no money" term) and if you like it.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Brassfire on May 03, 2003, 05:51:50 AM
Oh, wow. So much fuss...

Mnemonic, have you changed that line on the page yet? I really suggest you do so, because THAT is what everyone is misinterpreting. Change "it will cost $$$" to "please enquire with the developer about what would be fair in your particular case" or something. PLEASE. Then post that here as well and lock the stupid thread... unless we totally go OT and continue talking politics. lol

1. If someone makes anything free for non-commercial use, they are not out for BIG money. Ok?
(This deletes that entire section of the arguments as irrelevant.)

2. If someone wants to make something if you make something OFF THEIR WORK, they are not necessarily out for BIG money.
(Again, this deletes that entire argument as irrelevant.)

3. If someone charges any fixed price, they are more likely to be out to make money than someone who says "this is on a case-by-case basis, please contact me."
(Because that is NOT fair for people who are not going to be making money off their own work either... And another argument demolished.)

4. If you really want a free and opensource engine, use a different engine.
(There are alternatives - if you don't like something, don't use it. There goes THAT whole argument.)

 ;D

Now, on to the political stuff: www.politicalcompass.org shows how it is not "left" or "right" that is the problem per se, it is "authoritarianism" or "fascism". Hitler was close to the center, leaning right, which is why he became popular - his political views are in fact shared by many. But he was authoritarian, and that gave rise to the human rights abuses of his regime. Stalin was definitely leftist, but was also authoritarian.

Left or right merely means you have a difference of opinion on what to do to govern people and countries. Authoritarianism or libertarianism means you have a difference of opinion in HOW you achieve that, and authoritarianism justifies abuse by it's very nature.

I strongly recommend that people take the test. It's definitely interesting to see how your own beliefs stack up on the chart compared to well-known political leaders.
Title: Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
Post by: Mnemonic on May 03, 2003, 09:40:36 AM
BRASSFIRE: Did it, thanks!