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Author Topic: 3d models format  (Read 12988 times)

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alelink

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3d models format
« on: July 07, 2005, 10:30:44 AM »

Hello,
I'm not a Milkshape user, I'm a Maya and Blender user,
so would be better, I think, to have an exporter from those 3d package.
Milkshape is'nt the best solution for an animator, it does'nt have features such IK...
Maybe WME can have its own 3d file format?
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Mnemonic

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Re: 3d models format
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2005, 07:14:30 PM »

The Milkshape format has been chosen because the Milkshape 3D program provides a number of importers. The idea was that everyone would use a 3D package of their choice to model and possibly animate the character and then export it in one of the formats supported by Milkshape. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any way of transferring bone animations from Blender to Milkshape at the moment, but hopefully it will be possible one day. AFAIK there is a MS3D export script for Blender, but it doesn't support animations (yet).
I'm afraid a custom WME format is not feasible. It's out of my scope to create and maintain a new file format and especially to provide exporters for all the possible 3D packages out there...
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alelink

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Re: 3d models format
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2005, 04:49:40 PM »

Hi Mnemonic,
I've triyed Milkshape 1.7.4... and I think it's the worst choice
for an animator  ;)
Milkshape lacks a lot of features such smooth vertices falloff through multiple bones,
Ik, so it's impossible to manage a 3d model like the Resident Evil Zero and Rebirth characters...

...and it's very bad because WME is  "production ready" yet, I think.
With WME it's possible from now to create a game such Syberia or Resident Evil with great result,
but it need a modern support for 3d models.

the directx .x files supports all of this features, and there are exporters for almost all 3d package,
provided from Microsoft or open source community, so this work don't get on you ;)
so why don't use this format?

please consider this, I spoke so because I'm lovin' WME! :)

please forgive my poor English.
thanks!
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nuclear_winter

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Re: 3d models format
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2005, 02:16:22 AM »

You can animate in Character FX or FragMOTION, both use IK, and export to MS3D. It works well and it's a cheap option.
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alelink

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Re: 3d models format
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2005, 10:49:26 AM »

You can animate in Character FX or FragMOTION, both use IK, and export to MS3D. It works well and it's a cheap option.
thanks so much for this hint.
I'll try this 2 tools as soon as possible.

thanks!
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nuclear_winter

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Re: 3d models format
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2005, 11:25:33 AM »

Keep in mind that these are $20 softwares, so dont expect 3DSMAX or MAYA features ;)



Character FX has IK, joint limits, etc, but this software is dead for more than a year or 2, its good for the price ($20) and for the fact that it imports and exports MS3D ASCII perfectly. Check it out here: CFX



Some good Character-FX tutorials by Psionic can be found here and here.




  • Create skeletons with up to 254 bones.
  • Graphical keyframe editor that allows you to copy, paste and delete keyframes with ease.
  • Animate your character using Inverse Kinematics.
  • Support for up to 4 weighting values per vertex.



FragMOTION is constantly being updated and the developer is a cool guy always open to suggestions.

Fragmotion is $20, imports and exports perfectly MS3D, GS MDL (bones and vertex animations), check it out here.

CAUTION: Both CFX and FragMOTION support weighted vertices, but MS3D does not, so you're warned not to spend crazy ammounts of time tuning your deformable skin just to find out later that you can do nothing with it and most probably you'll have to reanimate the model from scratch.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2005, 11:35:15 AM by nuclear_winter »
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nuclear_winter

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sega | animanium for $99
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2005, 11:31:09 AM »

If you're a MAYA user you can find the software below extremely usefull.

Sega | Animanium is a revolutionary standalone application designed to help you in creating amazing character animation with an intuitive interface and powerful IK system. This IK system can be used as a companion product to the major animation/3D tools in the market place. Currently, it can manipulate bone data from 3DS Max, Maya, XSI, Lightwave and most recently, Character Studio. The powerful IK system allows virtual motion capture, which eliminates expensive physical motion capture process. This means significant reduction of out-of-pocket and labor cost. In addition, this self-contained IK system cuts most of the rigging and bone creation required in the traditional process. Depends on the project, Animanium will more than pay for itself in cost and production time. Think of Animanium as virtual motion capture system for animators...

Designed by some of Sega's premiere developers, Animanium represents a quantum leap in character animation, for two-legged, four-legged or multipedal characters. It was even recognized and awarded the prestigious Technological Innovation Award at 3D Festival in Coppenhagen in 2003.

Using an advanced IK system and providing for features that represent marionette rod controls, animators now have the ability to create the animations they've always wanted through a traditional and easy-to-understand 2D pose-to-pose workflow.

http://www.animanium.com/

Animanium is used in Billy Hatcher and the Giant Egg and Virtual-ON





CLICK THE IMAGES BELOW FOR VIDEOS



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alelink

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Re: 3d models format
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2005, 11:36:22 AM »

Hello,
yes Milkshape do not support weighted bones, so the all animation goodies
are lost.
Both Cfx and FragMotion seems to be very good for my purpose,
but try to imagine:
an Hi-res character model such the Resident Evil ones with rigid-skin animation....
it's a terrible situation...and I'm afraid for this, because WME it a great tool for
rapid development / prototyping.

Yes, I know Animanium, it seems to be like a system to animate
characters in a "Pinocchio" style (Marionette)
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nuclear_winter

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Re: 3d models format
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2005, 12:14:16 PM »

While weighted bones add a lot to the animations, very good results can be achieved without them with careful bone placing and vertex assignment.
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alelink

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Re: 3d models format
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2005, 04:08:31 PM »

yes, you are right,
but depend much from the tipology of the 3d characters.

I'll try and let you know.

thanks again for useful tips!
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Orange Brat

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Re: 3d models format
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2005, 02:45:11 AM »

Quote
FragMOTION is constantly being updated and the developer is a cool guy always open to suggestions.

I can vouch for this. If you ask him, he'll usually have the feature in within 3-5 days provided it isn't something huge, or he isn't in the middle of something more urgent.

I got him to implement the 3D Gamestudio MDL formats, and he did an excellent job.

Currenty, I've suggested for him to implement a feature that'll save animation frames to a bitmap format so they can be used for non-3D Wintermute animations: http://www.fragmosoft.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=152
« Last Edit: July 11, 2005, 05:53:48 PM by Mnemonic »
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Re: 3d models format
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2005, 11:36:30 AM »

Well, the best for all developers I believe would be having DirectX format supported. Animation exporting is a pain and having format
virtually any 3d software package supports would be a great help.  ;)

So maybe when Mnemonic gets time and energy, he can give this idea at least one or two thoughts.

*metamorphium runs away before he gets strangled by Mnemonic for requesting yet another features.*
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Orange Brat

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Re: 3d models format
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2005, 11:42:34 AM »

Even that isn't safe. There are multiple "flavors" of X format so not all packages export the same thing.
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nuclear_winter

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Re: 3d models format
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2005, 04:53:15 PM »

Even that isn't safe. There are multiple "flavors" of X format so not all packages export the same thing.
Yeah, i've had some problems exporting/importing x as well.
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Re: 3d models format
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2005, 06:00:08 PM »

hello,


I'm same guest than the one answering bout way to export in x, md5, milkshape, and md3 format successfully. It can be checked by any admin as used same email to loguin as guest.

By all means, I'd vote for x format. Yup, have its issues, but trust me, any fully featured bones+weights format has em.

havent read through all the thread, have little time now, but strongly agree with those ointing the fact that weights are a need for good organic animation. And I know well as I work as 3d modeller,uvmapper and animator for a living(well also do 2d pixel art, high res 2d, UI, everything in game art ).

So, imho, any modern engine today should care about engines like md5, *.x (largely the most standard with these features (~to what OBJ is for static...Imho ms3d is like 3ds compared to obj for statics...a safe bet, but way less featured))

With x format I successfully export from my XSI foundation, Character FX, and Blender. Besides, have used at job with no problems, two different x exporters for several max versions. There are full bone and weights exporters also for Maya(not all versions, true) , Lightwave , Messiah, GameSpace, Truespace,  hash Animation Master, etc.

A pair of advantages of doom3 *.md5  are Gmax support (yet not sure if totally legal, big issue) , no 65,000 tris limit like *.3ds and *.x have (but by code *.x can export more, I think, btw, quite huge for a character) and way more advanced (md5 supports normal maps, cameras and lights transfer, channels for storing per joint animation data, ragdoll stuff...) BUT...imho, at the end, you want most machines be running ur game, you want most packages allowed to export the format(so, 65,000 tris per character , besides you could allways use normal maps, as you are thinking in a distant future,so no needed). Provided ALL packages do export x format by third parties free plugins (the exception of Truespace and Hash, cheap plugins)  and that includes the now highly improved Blender (yay, been testing latest cvs versions, and been done every feature I wished for blender like in 2002 or before...)

BTW, sorry, I'm really new to wintermute...does it allow lightmaps? Stencil shadows? Well, could live without them by baking in textures, and usiing the bitmap feathered thing for characters...Just asking. (way more interested in the comercial distribution issue..that will totally stop me )

I use Character Fx, Blender, Max, gmax, Anim8or, Ultimate Unwrap, Wings3d, Sofimage XSI 4.0 Foundation version, mview, Milkshape3d. Not allways, I just have used quite a lot most of them.And specialized in formats stuff, for I wanted and was succesfull in forcing all these to see each other... ;)
I have helped some engine developers in improving or adding *.x support...Also to plugin developers,and software developers. Just an artist-betatester.

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