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Author Topic: What makes a good adventure?  (Read 13944 times)

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odnorf

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Re: What makes a good adventure?
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2008, 12:49:31 PM »

I remember that article by scarpia ages ago. It's really good.

Feel free to create as many lists as you want / can handle ;)
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Jyujinkai

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Re: What makes a good adventure?
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2008, 12:53:56 PM »

didn't know that link.. very cool little link.
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fireside

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Re: What makes a good adventure?
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2008, 05:36:22 AM »

Personally, I think that the puzzles need to be carried on further than they normally are, at least in amateur adventures.  It's all "put the tail on the donkey" kind of things.  It should be more, put the tail on the donkey and the donkey does something, but you have to continue with it, make more changes.  I don't think adventures should be god games, they don't really work well that way and you're just better off making a god game.  I don't think story is everything, either.  If that's the case, write an interactive story, but people expect to play a game and that means doing puzzles in adventures.  If you think puzzles have to perfectly fit the story you're going to write a very boring game, because how much of puzzle can you write that perfectly fits the story?  Write a simulation if you feel that way so you don't make people expect to play a game rather than play with a toy.
If you feel limited then you're not using your imagination.  All the player is asking of you is to give him/her a challenge and a good story.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2008, 05:59:42 AM by fireside »
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design3d

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Re: What makes a good adventure?
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2008, 08:58:08 AM »

If you feel limited then you're not using your imagination.  All the player is asking of you is to give him/her a challenge and a good story.
True. And we try to find the way to give them what they crave.

I did not quite understand that part about adventures as "god games" thou. I'm aware of such genre mostly in strategy or tycoon games. Or was it just misprint?
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Jyujinkai

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Re: What makes a good adventure?
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2008, 04:20:32 PM »

i do not understand what you mean by "God Game"
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odnorf

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Re: What makes a good adventure?
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2008, 05:16:21 PM »

I don't think story is everything, either.  If that's the case, write an interactive story, but people expect to play a game and that means doing puzzles in adventures.

I don't like to limit myself like that. If you think that's the case then write a puzzle game.

If you think puzzles have to perfectly fit the story you're going to write a very boring game, because how much of puzzle can you write that perfectly fits the story?

Or, you can write a game that isn't boring. The possibilities for puzzles that fit the story are endless, if you use your imagination.

All the player is asking of you is to give him/her a challenge and a good story.

Not all players are asking the same thing all the time. Otherwise everything would be really boring. I love challenging adventures but I also love adventures that have no difficulty at all.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2008, 05:24:11 PM by odnorf »
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fireside

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Re: What makes a good adventure?
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2008, 05:42:28 PM »

Quote
i do not understand what you mean by "God Game"

God games are games where you are in charge, you control what is happening as opposed to games where the challenges are put before you and you have to overcome them.  Since I don't particularly like them, I can't give many examples, but Civilization is often brought up with that term.

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I don't like to limit myself like that. If you think that's the case then write a puzzle game.

I am, I'm writing an adventure game.  Puzzles have always been the game play for them.

Quote
Or, you can write a game that isn't boring. The possibilities for puzzles that fit the story are endless, if you use your imagination.

Not really.  They are limited to perfect simulations.  Puzzles that are challenging tend to use abstractions.  Take the parking puzzle game that has been cloned a lot.  It's not a real parking lot because that wouldn't be very fun.  It's an abstraction of a parking lot with rules that make it challenging.  If you can provide a challenge and perfectly fit the story, then fine, but I don't see how you can say that puzzles that don't perfectly fit the story are a limitation when you are just banning a segment of puzzles from the game.  Think about these trap games,etc.  Would someone go to all that trouble to put up strange traps to keep intruders out?  Probably not, but the traps are fun in themselves to overcome and we all have the ability to pretend for a while that someone actually designed all these strange traps for the hero to get through.  Stories themselves don't have to be realistic in the least to work.  Fantasies prove that.  I've heard complaints like "Who would put this puzzle to open a door?"  Well, it's a fantasy world, so a character could do anything.  That's why we play these things instead of going out and playing in the yard or something.  We want an imaginary world.



« Last Edit: July 26, 2008, 05:58:08 PM by fireside »
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odnorf

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Re: What makes a good adventure?
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2008, 06:16:55 PM »

I am, I'm writing an adventure game.  Puzzles have always been the game play for them.

Stories were always in them as well. You claim that stories (interactiv as you called them) are not adventures but puzzle games are.

Not really.  They are limited to perfect simulations.  Puzzles that are challenging tend to use abstractions.  Take the parking puzzle game that has been cloned a lot.  It's not a real parking lot because that wouldn't be very fun.  It's an abstraction of a parking lot with rules that make it challenging.  If you can provide a challenge and perfectly fit the story, then fine, but I don't see how you can say that puzzles that don't perfectly fit the story are a limitation when you are just banning a segment of puzzles from the game.

Never banned anything or said anything similar. You must have misread something.

Stories themselves don't have to be realistic in the least to work.  Fantasies prove that.  I've heard complaints like "Who would put this puzzle to open a door?"  Well, it's a fantasy world, so a character could do anything.  That's why we play these things instead of going out and playing in the yard or something.  We want an imaginary world.

I never wanted realistic stories. But I did say that I'd like to see those "stories" with puzzles that fit their world (and not mine). You can also play adventures for different reasons than to "escape".

EDIT: And to give an example. I like the discworld games because their puzzles perfectly fit the world although at the same time they are far away from anything logical.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2008, 06:27:20 PM by odnorf »
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fireside

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Re: What makes a good adventure?
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2008, 01:26:52 AM »

Quote
Stories were always in them as well. You claim that stories (interactiv as you called them) are not adventures but puzzle games are.

Yes, an interactive story is not a game.  It's more like a toy.  There are no challenges in it.  You get to choose different paths.  Everyone talks them up but when you play them they are boring.  No cohesion because of all the path choices.

Quote
I never wanted realistic stories. But I did say that I'd like to see those "stories" with puzzles that fit their world (and not mine).

Anything could fit their world.  It's imaginary.  They could easily have puzzles in every door.  Rubics cube lanterns, who knows?  Games were more fun when there was more imagination in the puzzles like insult sword fighting, etc.  Now everyone is scared to death something won't fit the story.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 01:33:28 AM by fireside »
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Jyujinkai

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Re: What makes a good adventure?
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2008, 02:51:22 AM »

I have to say that the stories are the main focus for me in adventure games. With out a great story and naritive why bother playing imo. I find that to many puzzles or to complex puzzles in fact slow the game play and story down so much that the game becomes dull. Nothing worse than being stuck and wandering about the game world, though zone after zone that you have seen and not advancing at all. I think that puzzles are the way to advance teh story but imo it is a secondary device to the story itself.
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<Antoine de Saint-Exupéry> In any thing at all, perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away...
<Carl Sagan> If you want to make a apple pie from scratch. You must first... invent the universe

fireside

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Re: What makes a good adventure?
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2008, 05:17:16 AM »

Quote
I think that puzzles are the way to advance teh story but imo it is a secondary device to the story itself.

I agree.  The puzzles need to be formed around the story and enhance it.  I hate wandering around not knowing what to do, but they also have to be interesting and creative.  You can have too many puzzles or too few.
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odnorf

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Re: What makes a good adventure?
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2008, 08:53:28 AM »

I agree.  The puzzles need to be formed around the story and enhance it.  I hate wandering around not knowing what to do, but they also have to be interesting and creative.  You can have too many puzzles or too few.

So you first bash what I say and then you agree when someone else says the same?  ???
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odnorf

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Re: What makes a good adventure?
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2008, 08:58:29 AM »

Yes, an interactive story is not a game.  It's more like a toy.  There are no challenges in it.  You get to choose different paths.  Everyone talks them up but when you play them they are boring.  No cohesion because of all the path choices.

No, they are indeed games (and let's not forget that it's you who start talking about them, I never mentioned them in my previous posts). And of course games should be challenging only the way you want them to be. Other gamers don't exist.

Anything could fit their world.  It's imaginary.  They could easily have puzzles in every door.  Rubics cube lanterns, who knows?  Games were more fun when there was more imagination in the puzzles like insult sword fighting, etc.  Now everyone is scared to death something won't fit the story.

Anything? Like an alien rabbit that eats humans in an FBI story with no supernatural elements? Sword fighting was a brilliant idea which fit the world.
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fireside

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Re: What makes a good adventure?
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2008, 03:00:25 PM »

Quote
So you first bash what I say and then you agree when someone else says the same?  Huh

Sounded different when you said it. ;D

Quote
Anything? Like an alien rabbit that eats humans in an FBI story with no supernatural elements? Sword fighting was a brilliant idea which fit the world.

There needs to be continuity in a game, but people tend to take it too far when it comes to puzzles and complain about anything that  they perceive to be slightly out of context.  It's a game.  You don't walk down a street and get in fights with 5000 people either, but people that play those games don't complain because they know it would be boring to walk down the street and not do anything.  Adventure gamers are forever whining about some puzzle that didn't quite fit the story because they are just lazy or want everything to be the way they think it should be.  If the puzzle isn't fun, that's a different story.


« Last Edit: July 28, 2008, 03:06:55 PM by fireside »
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odnorf

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Re: What makes a good adventure?
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2008, 03:14:02 PM »

Adventure gamers are forever whining about some puzzle that didn't quite fit the story because they are just lazy or want everything to be the way they think it should be.

I never whine about games and it's well known among the people that know me that I enjoy all adventures (and most people find this very crazy). ;D But other than that, the only thing I did here is some suggestions that imo can hugely improve some adventures. ::slug
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