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Author Topic: So, how much it's gonna cost?  (Read 30762 times)

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OldCoder

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2003, 03:15:22 PM »

@ odnorf:
Quote
try to ask to buy the engine of a commercial game and you will be amazed of how much it's going to cost you
I am in the business as producer of computer magazines and software since 1987 - you must be joking - lol ;) I had these people in my bureau ($300.000 per produced game) - most of them are now delivering the newspapers on a bike each morning or work for MCDonalds - rofl (behind the bar with that chic uniform)

@ Jerrot: You SHOULD invite Bill Gates - because without him I doubt that Mnemonic would develop on a computer rather than on paper and with plastic-actors ;)

As I said before - I am just adding arguments to bring that business on an acceptable way - and if Zorro wouldn't have started that thread I would have done or someone else. Money makes the world go round.  ;D

If Mnemonic writes on his website: it costs from $0.50 if you make $2 ... $100.000.000 if you make $1 Billion.  :P
Or he puts a figure like we make 50:50 if you make money with it.
Then at least it is something a person who is interested knows if its worth to spend time on it.
Figures you can count on - okay ? And are fair and the same for everyone. And then you decide for what ever ...
« Last Edit: April 28, 2003, 03:20:29 PM by OldCoder »
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Mnemonic

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2003, 03:21:58 PM »

@ Jerrot: You SHOULD invite Bill Gates - because without him I doubt that Mnemonic would develop on a computer rather than on paper and with plastic-actors ;)
I can assure you I've been developing software long before entering the world of PC and Wintel  ;)
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odnorf

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2003, 03:49:06 PM »

I am in the business as producer of computer magazines and software since 1987 - you must be joking - lol ;)

Joking? Why? Because I said that the commercial engines costs thousands $ and that's true?

most of them are now delivering the newspapers on a bike each morning or work for MCDonalds - rofl (behind the bar with that chic uniform)

Yes, I always thought that "ID" is broke. And yes you must be right... If they sold the Quake3 engine for 100$ now they will be rich.

@ Jerrot: You SHOULD invite Bill Gates - because without him I doubt that Mnemonic would develop on a computer rather than on paper and with plastic-actors ;)

Well, I don't think that Microsoft has offered many things to the computer world. Only products with thousands of bugs. And If you ask me why I use windows, is because I am a graphic designer and I have to use programs like photoshop, Indesign, Illustrator etc (And I don't like macintosh for other reasons)

As I said before - I am just adding arguments to bring that business on an acceptable way - and if Zorro wouldn't have started that thread I would have done or someone else.

Not everything is business. Maybe mnemonic creates this engine because he likes to work for adventure games and if he manage to earn some money by doing what he likes then that's cool. I believe that things are on an "acceptable way" as they are now. It wouldn't be "acceptable" for me If I had to pay for an engine to create a free game. And ofcouse it wouldn't be "acceptable" for me to pay 10.000 to create a commercial game and potentially loose a lot of money. And it wouldn't be "acceptable" for me to pay 100$ for an engine an maybe earn 50.000$ by using it.

Money makes the world go round.  ;D

For me, money just destroys civilization. I just don't like the way companies and individual (like you) treat them like Gods. What I like is creating adventure games. And if I ever create a commercial adventure game then I will contact mnemonic to have an agreement about his share.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2003, 04:45:13 PM by odnorf »
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ZackDoneo

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2003, 04:46:21 PM »

I'm new here, obviously, but I have to side with Mnemonic and the others. If you really plan to make money off your game, it's simple business practice for -somebody- to get a percentage somewhere, and that somebody is probably going to have had a big impact on your 'business'. However, I highly doubt any games made with -any- amateur game creation program will bring in even hextuple digits worth of money. The market for adventure games just isn't that big anymore, and considering the obvious distrust of anything that hasn't got big explosions and guns going off every second...

So, Mnemonic is being very reasonable. Any adventure game created using Wintermute that tried to charge even standard commercial fees would flop immediately. Would you play $50 (US) for King's Quest 2 VGA? Or Hero6? Probably not.

I estimate that the most any -successful- amateur adventure game will go for is probably about $20, tops. Mnemonic could probably just go for a fee of 20% per sale - bringing him about $4 dollars every sale, leaving the game-maker $16. Does that sound at all unreasonable?

Zorro, you seem to have very high expectations for your game, if you're planning in the -billions-. Lemme tell you one thing straight out - there is no way in hell.

Brings a question to my mind - why is everyone assuming that it would be a percentage off the end-profit? That would be unreasonable, considering there would always, on occasion, be a sale somewhere along the line, until the game went 'extinct'. Some of these games that go commercial might not make any money at all.

Of course, Mnemonic could charge more or less of a percentage... still wouldn't be unreasonable. From what I've seen, Wintermute is one of the more flexible game-creation programs, and after only three months, that's quite impressive. If he charged 50% on that same $20 program, he'd only get ten dollars out of it. If that program went on to make 30 sales or so, both the creator and Mnemonic would get 300 dollars, and I -still- doubt he'd want 50%, though it's all up to him.

The problem I see here is not that Mnemonic is being greedy, but people with overly high expectations and a portion of their -own- greed are causing problems that don't even make sense. Mnemonic is making this program. You use it. You make money off his program, he gets money for it. Common sense.
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odnorf

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2003, 05:13:03 PM »

...amateur game creation program...

What we are dealing here is not an "amateur game creation program"... trust me... You can do with WME whatever you see in most big commercial 2D adventure games (except the realtime 3D characters...yet...)

Brings a question to my mind - why is everyone assuming that it would be a percentage off the end-profit? That would be unreasonable, considering there would always, on occasion, be a sale somewhere along the line, until the game went 'extinct'. Some of these games that go commercial might not make any money at all.

Well, mnemonic said "A percentage of the game's final price." (in this topic) so you are correct about this... And this is reasonable.

Mnemonic is making this program. You use it. You make money off his program, he gets money for it. Common sense.

Nobody could have said it better...
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Zorro

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2003, 05:26:41 PM »

== For me, money just destroys civilization. I just don't like the way companies and individual (like you) treat them like Gods. ==

And I presume, you count myself such yellow-devil-worshipping kind of person as well. Am I right? However, I completely agree with you - I also believe that money destroys civilization and I like those money rascals no more than you.

I also strongly object the notion that it was ME who started this thread. Well, technically speaking it was me, but as OldCoder absolutely correctly pointed out, if not me, it was bound to be started by somebody else. That's because in the essence it was started by no else but Mr. Mnemonic himself with his now infamous "will cost you $$$".

As a matter of fact, I HATE talking about money and I'd prefer not talking about them at all, but did have I chance? All I was trying to do, was to finish with that highly unfortunate topic as soon as possible BEFORE it became REALLY ugly. Could I avoid that? No. Could our wonderful Mr. Mnemonic prevent it? Sure as Heaven - he just had to state, plain and simple (as for virtually all other amateur engines): the stuff is FREE. Period. He might as well GPL his engine (what would be EXTREMELY good for the engine quality and capabilities) and do lots of other good things but instead he decided from the very beginning to aim for the big money. And I do mean BIG. (What. of course, does not imply he will ever succeed - I'd rather bet on the opposite.)

Let's examine one of the leading arguments of this thread: the alternatives "free for non-commercial, extremely expensive for (quasi) commercial" and "cheap for everybody". But WHY a those the ONLY alternatives? Why can't we talk about "free for non-commercial, cheap for everybody else?" I'll tell you why: because this last one promises only SMALL money (also in reality it COULD bring BIG). And that false alternative was set by Mr. Mnemonic himself: "Of course, I can understand this scheme [fixed price] - many people start their games, not many finish them." In other words he's just musing on different ways of making the SAME money - either collect them from everybody or from the few most successful, but he doesn't even consider a possibility of making LESS money. ("The price is 100 bucks but you don't have to pay it until you make that 100 bucks because otherwise it wouldn't be fair.") But not just that, a little later he adds: "The problem is those products are way too expensive for this approach [fixed price for tools] to work. Yep, VC++ is far from cheap, so is Photoshop, 3DS Max, etc. Also, and more importantly, they sell many more units than any game engine ever will." Sorry, man, but why should I appreciate your aspirations to become the next Bill Gates? Yes, those products are way to expensive and, yes, they sell much broader than yours ever will. And that's precisely WHY their owners are "filthy rich" while you will never be. But you know what? It's completely OK with me. I'm not wishing you to become filthy (or even just) rich and I'm not gonna apologize for that. (As a matter of fact, I'd rather prefer nobody was rich.)

Now, that we cleared out the nouveau riche stuff, let's talk about "fairness" business. That's how Mr. Mnemonic sees it: "We share the risk, we share the gain. You can think about it as of the engine developer being a part of your development team." Sounds nice but only until the engine developer IS a member of the team so his work (along with work of other team members) belong to the TEAM. But that's not what Mr. Mnemonic proposes, He wants to share in other people's work, but he insists on his exclusive rights for his own piece which he could sell again and again by becoming "a member" of other teams. Or you can look at it from the different perspective: what would be the ultimate result of this development if everything goes OK and luck will be on Mr. Mnemonic's side? I'll tell you: he will get a commercial-grade engine that he might indeed license for hundreds of thousands (millions, combined) of bucks. Well, good for him. But the question remains: would he be ever there without help of this community of amateur developers? We (I assume a hypothetical case I joined the community and am developing my games using WME) helped him debug his crap, we gave him ideas, how to improve it, we advertised his product, etc, etc, etc. There would be NO product without us, so where is OUR share? Will Mr. Mnemonic to fly to everybody of us to hand a fat suitcase full of money? I seriously doubt that. We will, most likely, remain a bunch of amateurs who in the best case made a couple of grands all together and actually PAID Mr. Mnemonic for the dubious privilege of helping him to become filthy rich. So why should Mr. Mnemonic share in our (hypothetical) personal success that he helped to achieve if he refuses to share with us in his personal success in which we helped him? I see nothing "fair" about it. Nothing at all.

Let's put it strait, folks: we ARE amateurs here, all of us. Including Mr. Mnemonic. If we (game developers) were professionals, developing real (i.e. not quasi) commercial games we wouldn't even consider going with WME, we would go with PROVEN commercial-grade engines that were used in TLJ, Siberia and games like that - we would have money to pay for them upfront and we wouldn't have time to struggle with not fully debugged, lacking functionality engine. Or we would hire a few programmers to develop an engine to our precise specs that would give us en edge over competitors. Likewise, if Mr. Mnemonic was a professional, he wouldn't bother with us, he'd sell his engine to respectable companies that are able to pay a hundred grands up front. But, you know, I kinda like it that way. I do prefer that we create games for GAMES, for the people that would play them, not for the money they might or might not to bring us. And I welcome Mr. Mnemonic to do just the same: to develop his engine for the sake of it, for the people that would use it (i.e. for us), not for the money it might or might not bring him.

You said that money destroy civilization. That's true. At least, they sure destroying this community - well, you might consider OldCoder and myself unworthy potential members, but still, we might become part of it but money matters are preventing that. And I regret that. So I have a practical proposal how we can BE a community and not allow money to interfere into our relations: let's remain AMATEURS, let's not squabble over the monies that most likely will never materialize. In particular, let's agree on this terms:

1. Whatever we're doing here it's not for money but for the enjoyment of doing it. We already have all the gratification we are seeking so we do NOT need any additional "gratification" measured in dollars and cents. Thus:

2. We grant Mr. Mnemonic (and each other) an unlimited rights to play all of our current and future games. For FREE.

3. Mr. Mnemonic grants us an unlimited rights to create games with the current and all future versions of his engine. For FREE.

4. If somebody do become filthy rich - like selling a million copies of the game or finding a company that'd like to license an engine for million bucks, he or she brings us all together (Prague sounds good and appropriate) and serves Champaign with caviar. For FREE.

5. That's it.
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Zorro

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2003, 06:03:38 PM »

20%!!! You gotta be kidding!  ;D

And since it's a percentage of the PRICE, authors pay all production, packaging, and distribution costs. Plus games are usually developed by SEVERAL persons. All that means Mr. Mnemonic would make MORE money than actual game developers on EVERY game. 20%!!! Even for a commercial engine I consider 5% - from ACTUAL PROFITS - an overkill. What about 1% after $10,000 profit? And even that I'd call a filthy greediness.
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ZackDoneo

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2003, 06:03:42 PM »

I think your argument does have some good points, and I agree with much of it. However, you directly contradicted yourself toward the end - you said "And I welcome Mr. Mnemonic to do just the same: to develop his engine for the sake of it, for the people that would use it (i.e. for us), not for the money it might or might not bring him".

However. This makes no sense at all, considering you are also stating that you may want to sell your own work. That's fine, respectable even. But shouldn't Mnemonic get money if you get money? He's perfectly willing, I believe, to let those who plan to make -no- money off their work (yes, I'm changing it to "work", because of odnorf's point about it not being just a game-making program) by making it freeware, to use his program free of charge.

But the minute money comes into it, it only becomes proper business procedure that he gets a little as well. He does not appear to have any corporate aims whatsoever - those who do have such goals are evident simply -because- they charge $100 dollars straight off. They could care less if you're not going to do anything with it. They sometimes provide 'trials', which are just that. They have some time-limit, or limited features. He's not doing any of that. Free-to-use, percentage-to-sell.

So, if you earn money by using his program to make something else, it's only reasonable he gain money for the continual use of his program. If, by any miracle, you do make a million dollars, it will be because of his program. Advertisements, fans, all that - they have nothing without his program. It's a mutual relationship. Such mutual relationships require benefits on both sides. So, when you start benefitting even more, so does he. Simply because of the fact that while you -may- have created the same program using another base similar to Wintermute, you did not - and I can not say whether it would even be similar, using different programs.

Microsoft was even worse. They bought DOS off a couple of programmers for maybe a few grand (not sure of the figure). Those programmers lost all rights to it. Then along comes the crappy little Windows add-on... And suddenly, it's this huge corporation that's got its grubby little hands in everything. And the little programmers are forgotten.

While this is certainly legal, it's not exactly something that anyone but Microsoft enjoyed for long. However - would Microsoft have gone anywhere without DOS to begin with? I don't know... possibly, but probably not.

It's rather understandable to me that those programmers might be a little disturbed, upset, etc. Possibly wishing they hadn't sold DOS. Perhaps Mnemonic does not wish to have that error.

Money in this kind of venture is extremely complicated, but sometimes it does come up. Obviously. So, perhaps he's making a bad move, but it's actually probably a smart move in the end - I wouldn't want to end up like the makers of DOS either. Left in the dirt, while the people who bought their OS benefitted enormously.

Wouldn't you do something similar? While I also hate even the concept of money, it is a fact of life that is rather... 'difficult' to change. So, to get anything, you have to have these little things called 'dollars'. I wish I could utterly destroy the creators of the concept of money.

I don't know Mnemonics money situation, but if it's anything like mine, he's going to try to get money whereever he can simply to survive. Survival really isn't that great, but... Anyway. In the unlikely event that someone makes a boat-load of money through his program, it's reasonable, understandable, and acceptable to me that Mnemonic gets money as well. You would be nowhere without him, and may even do the same in his situation - he puts hard work into this as well, just as you may put hard work into whatever plans you have. Not exactly easy creating something like Wintermute with any degree of dependancy or success...

So, again, I state: Mnemonic is making this program. You use it. You make money off his program, he gets money for it. Common sense.
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odnorf

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2003, 06:05:44 PM »

And I presume, you count myself such yellow-devil-worshipping kind of person as well. Am I right? However, I completely agree with you - I also believe that money destroys civilization and I like those money rascals no more than you.

First of all you make it sound like I said "I HATE all people who..." when I just said that "I don't like.....". And to answer your question "No", I don't count you. You said your opinion and there were good points in what you said. I just don't agree with it... You didn't come here to compain for a product you are not going to use and you didn't say that "Money makes the word go round." which for me is a stupid sentence. But if you really believed that I said that for you then I apologize to you...

I also strongly object the notion that it was ME who started this thread. Well, technically speaking it was me, but as OldCoder absolutely correctly pointed out, if not me, it was bound to be started by somebody else.

Nothing wrong with you starting this thread. I never blamed anyone for posting here (How could I do that?... It's not even my forum...) You had suggestion to make & questions to ask about the licence and this place (the forum) is for that.

Could I avoid that? No. Could our wonderful Mr. Mnemonic prevent it? Sure as Heaven - he just had to state, plain and simple (as for virtually all other amateur engines): the stuff is FREE. Period.

In the faq he is saying that the engine is free for free games and will cost money if you go commercial. All other amateur (I don't like this term) engines? Go check AGAST for example.

He might as well GPL his engine (what would be EXTREMELY good for the engine quality and capabilities) and do lots of other good things

What "free software" has to do with "opensource software"? It's two different terms...

but instead he decided from the very beginning to aim for the big money. And I do mean BIG. (What. of course, does not imply he will ever succeed - I'd rather bet on the opposite.)

I'd like you to "quote" that mnemonic said that. If you can't then you make it up.

Let's examine one of the leading arguments of this thread: the alternatives "free for non-commercial, extremely expensive for (quasi) commercial" and "cheap for everybody".

Where did you find this line (except the free for non-commercial part)? Please give me like because I can't fine it anywhere.

Sorry, man, but why should I appreciate your aspirations to become the next Bill Gates?

He said that too I guess....e?

(As a matter of fact, I'd rather prefer nobody was rich.)

At least there is one thing that we agree :)

We (I assume a hypothetical case I joined the community and am developing my games using WME) helped him debug his crap,

Yeah, very mature... you just cursed a computer program...

we gave him ideas, how to improve it, we advertised his product, etc, etc, etc. There would be NO product without us, so where is OUR share?

I will have a better engine for my games (amateur or commercial).

Will Mr. Mnemonic to fly to everybody of us to hand a fat suitcase full of money? I seriously doubt that. We will, most likely, remain a bunch of amateurs who in the best case made a couple of grands all together and actually PAID Mr. Mnemonic for the dubious privilege of helping him to become filthy rich.

We will help him to become rich? You said before that he will never be rich...

Let's put it strait, folks: we ARE amateurs here, all of us. Including Mr. Mnemonic. If we (game developers) were professionals, developing real (i.e. not quasi) commercial games we wouldn't even consider going with WME, we would go with PROVEN commercial-grade engines that were used in TLJ, Siberia and games like that

It seems that have never downloaded the engine 'cause in this case you would know what the engine is capable of.

Likewise, if Mr. Mnemonic was a professional, he wouldn't bother with us, he'd sell his engine to respectable companies that are able to pay a hundred grands up front.

First you accuse him of being professional who only think about money and then now you say that he is an amateur.

develop his engine for the sake of it, for the people that would use it (i.e. for us), not for the money it might or might not bring him.

He is doing that... I am developing an adventure game now without to have to buy an engine.

You said that money destroy civilization. That's true. At least, they sure destroying this community - well, you might consider OldCoder and myself unworthy potential members,

So, when someone argues with you then he "considers you an unworthy potential memner"? I don't know if you think like that but I don't. You just make your points and I make mine.

In particular, let's agree on this terms:

1. Whatever we're doing here it's not for money but for the enjoyment of doing it. We already have all the gratification we are seeking so we do NOT need any additional "gratification" measured in dollars and cents.

I am creating an adventure game now that it will be free (maybe even opensource).

2. We grant Mr. Mnemonic (and each other) an unlimited rights to play all of our current and future games. For FREE.

3. Mr. Mnemonic grants us an unlimited rights to create games with the current and all future versions of his engine. For FREE.

Why should we do that? I someone wants to creat a game he is free to do so... even if it's commercial game.

4. If somebody do become filthy rich - like selling a million copies of the game or finding a company that'd like to license an engine for million bucks, he or she brings us all together (Prague sounds good and appropriate) and serves Champaign with caviar. For FREE.

I promise that.

5. That's it.

OK.... We both make our points so please let's stop here and start doing what we like... creating adventures.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2003, 06:13:09 PM by odnorf »
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Zorro

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2003, 06:34:52 PM »

== What we are dealing here is not an "amateur game creation program"... trust me... You can do with WME whatever you see in most big commercial 2D adventure games (except the realtime 3D characters...yet...) ==

Yes, it is. And even not because of the lack of 3D (what is a MUST for today's REAL commercial engine). First of all, commercial engine must be RELIABLE. In other words, it should work. Not just work, but work on all imaginable configurations. What means it should be actually tested with all major sound and video cards, memory sizes, CPUs, Windows versions, etc. under STRESS CONDITIONS. Additionally, it would be desirable if it worked on other platforms, like Apple and all major consoles. Second, from the commercial engine I expect either EXTREME flexibility or WELL DOCUMENTED source code (preferably - both) to be able to do what I REALLY want to do. Third, I expect a full working source of a real or example game that demonstrates all techniques. Fourth, did I mention good, up to date documentation? Fifth, most important, I do NOT expect to find myself dead in the water because Mr. Mnemonic was killed in the car accident or just decided to direct his efforts at something else (as many other amateurs did). What translates into a stable company with several programmers, sizable cash reserve and proven commitment to the product (i.e. it must already invest into it enough money to not abandon it without very good cause). Finally, I expect a REAL technical support.

All this, as you might guess costs money. BIG money. Thus - a high price tag on commercial engines. They might be STARTED in a garage, but to become a commercial product they MUST move into a nice office in a techno park.
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odnorf

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2003, 06:36:28 PM »

(I created a new post because my internet connection has a lot of problems now and I have problems editing my previous post)

I just wanted to say that I believe that we have said our opinions on this subject (maybe more "loud" than we should) and It's a good idea not to go any further.

Nevertheless if someone got offended with what *I* said please send me a private message and I will apologize to him.
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Mnemonic

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2003, 07:51:57 PM »

I also strongly object the notion that it was ME who started this thread. Well, technically speaking it was me, but as OldCoder absolutely correctly pointed out, if not me, it was bound to be started by somebody else. That's because in the essence it was started by no else but Mr. Mnemonic himself with his now infamous "will cost you $$$".
That's right and I don't have a problem discussing the topic on this forum. Of course I want to know people's opinions. Whatever they are.

Sure as Heaven - he just had to state, plain and simple (as for virtually all other amateur engines): the stuff is FREE.
So, this is what it's all about? You want me to give you the engine for free? And you are wrong, the licencing of the other development tools varies.


but instead he decided from the very beginning to aim for the big money. And I do mean BIG. (What. of course, does not imply he will ever succeed - I'd rather bet on the opposite.)
This is just ridiculous. I won't event comment it (*again*).


("The price is 100 bucks but you don't have to pay it until you make that 100 bucks because otherwise it wouldn't be fair.")
Sure, that would be perfectly fair for you. But shouldn't the engine developer have guarantees too? No, of course not. He just wrote a piece of crappy buggy software, it probably took him no more than two weekends to hack it together and now he wants to take our hard earned money. While we are using his product only because we don't have enough money to purchase a commercial grade engine. So he can kiss our asses...

Ok, I don't wanna become fithy rich, but I don't wanna become other people's source of cheap (prefferably free) labour neither!


We (I assume a hypothetical case I joined the community and am developing my games using WME) helped him debug his crap, we gave him ideas, how to improve it, we advertised his product, etc, etc, etc. There would be NO product without us, so where is OUR share?
Call me naive, but I thought everyone would benefit from the engine improvements. Well, obviously I was wrong. Silly me.


So I have a practical proposal how we can BE a community and not allow money to interfere into our relations: let's remain AMATEURS, let's not squabble over the monies that most likely will never materialize.
Great, there's nothing easier! Just make your game freeware and we won't have to deal with the finacial crap at all! Why don't you?



Yes, it is. And even not because of the lack of 3D (what is a MUST for today's REAL commercial engine).Finally, I expect a
.
.
.
REAL technical support.

All this, as you might guess costs money. BIG money. Thus - a high price tag on commercial engines. They might be STARTED in a garage, but to become a commercial product they MUST move into a nice office in a techno park.

So, what were you trying to say by this post? That I should stop developing WME because I'll never be able to match Microsoft's technical support and resources? Or that I should give out the engine for free because it's not worth a penny, because I'll never be able to match Microsoft's technical support and resources? Mind you, that if I *would* do that, I'd also forbid *any* commercial use of the engine (who'd want to make a commercial game on a crappy engine without proper technical support anyway?). But I won't do that because, surprisingly, you're not the only person considering using WME for a commercial project. There are others, who don't seem to be disgusted by the licencing as much as you. Probably because they don't think they are LucasArts and they realize wouldn't make a game like TLJ even if they had TLJ engine with all its documentation and support (do you *really* think all the commercial engines are that well documented? dream on!). They just want to make a cool game, and if everything goes right, they'll even get a few bucks for it (and if they do, they'll share a few with the guy who programmed the core of their game).

You know, some time ago I had a brief discussion with Todd Zankich (from AGAST) and he gave me an excellent advice concerning the engine users. I always remember this advice in times like this. Todd, if you are reading this by any chance, thank you! :)


And a personal note: I've lived about 12 years of my life in a country driven by a communist government. That's how I learned that communism simply doesn't work in the real world...
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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2003, 08:45:29 PM »

We (I assume a hypothetical case I joined the community and am developing my games using WME) helped him debug his crap, we gave him ideas, how to improve it, we advertised his product, etc, etc, etc. There would be NO product without us, so where is OUR share?

This is also a good one. Of course, you are generously leaving out one important thing. Mr. Mnemonic spend 2 years building the engine from scratch before going public with it. He added *thousands* of features to make the engine as flexible as possible. Now here comes Mr. Zorro with his kick-ass bestseller game, he will suggest... how many... ten new features? And suddenly the engine becomes commercial grade! Cool! But of course, Mr. Zorro feels to be ripped off, too bad :(

OK, I apologize to other readers, this thead has became really nasty. I know it's pointless because Zorro obviously won't use WME anyway, but I need to defend myself when being constantly attacked this way :(
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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2003, 09:16:18 PM »

== I don't know Mnemonics money situation, but if it's anything like mine, ==

Well, let's assume, just for argument sake, your situations are identical. So I could speck directly to you...

== he's going to try to get money wherever he can simply to survive. ==

I can understand that but, honestly, what exactly "survival" means in this particular case? Does it includes Champaign and caviar? In a more (in a sense) philosophical way... There were times when mere survival wasn't a problem. So what are you going to do in this life, just survive or try to do something more positive about this fundamental problem?

== This makes no sense at all, considering you are also stating that you may want to sell your own work. ==

Nope. What I said, that I'd probably, HAVE TO sell my work because it's a promising distribution channel. I wouldn't mind (actually, I would encourage that) if people freely distribute it in addition to sales channel. But in this particular case I never told it's wrong to sell the engine WHEN it becomes a commercial product. After all, am I gonna charge people who beta-test my games? No. More likely I'd say them "Thank you very much for all your help!". That doesn't mean they necessary didn't enjoy playing, but the main beneficiary was ME - they helped ME to create a game that now could be sold (if I wish so). Now, what about saying "Thanks!" to those who's beta-testing this engine instead of asking for money? One needs actual games to test the engine not less than game developers need it to produce game. It's ALREADY a mutually beneficial relationship. There might be no games without engine, but what's absolutely sure there would be no viable engine without those who volunteered to test it in real development. It's a big question, who benefits more.

== That's fine, ==

Considering circumstances - yes.

== respectable even. ==

Here we somewhat disagree...

== they charge $100 dollars straight off. They could care less if you're not going to do anything with it. ==

What do YOU care about? OK, they make money. What is fine, as you put it. Do YOU have any other agenda? Just don't mistake different business-models for different agendas. Well, may be you DO have something higher in mind I fail to see so far, then explain, what it might be.

== Microsoft was even worse. ... It's rather understandable to me that those programmers might be a little disturbed, upset, etc. ==

So, now we're going to pity all the programmers in the world... Well, that's OK since I'm of the same kind. But why did you start with those poor guys? After all, I don't think they cashed less than any other programmer working for Microsoft FOR SALARY. As a matter of fact, I believe they've cashed much more - that's if they really were the owners of DOS, not just the same salaried programmers, working for the boss (if the latter is the case, they, probably, were rehired by MS for better salary). But in any case they (or their bosses) failed (in a capitalist meaning) not as programmers but as businessmen and I have absolutely no pity for their kind, whatever happens to them.

== Wouldn't you do something similar? ==

Circumstances... Temptations... It's a question of trusting yourself. Sometimes such trust is betrayed...

== While I also hate even the concept of money... ==

Well, it looks like Mr. Mnemonic strongly disagree with you.

== I wish I could utterly destroy the creators of the concept of money. ==

Now, that's interesting! Can't you elaborate?
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Mnemonic

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2003, 09:24:54 PM »

== While I also hate even the concept of money... ==

Well, it looks like Mr. Mnemonic strongly disagree with you.
Don't get me wrong. I don't think the current system is perfect. I just don't know of any better at the moment...
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