Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

This forum provides RSS feed. To query recent posts use this url. More...


Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5

Author Topic: So, how much it's gonna cost?  (Read 33672 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Zorro

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Karma: 0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19
  • I'm NOT a llama!
    • View Profile
Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2003, 10:12:09 PM »

To ondorf:

== In the faq he is saying that... ==

Sure, but it's not what I meant. It's rather opposite.

== What "free software" has to do with "opensource software"? It's two different terms... ==

Who brought the notion "opensource software"? Definitely not me.

== Quote from: Zorro on Today at 06:26:41pm
but instead he decided from the very beginning to aim for the big money. And I do mean BIG. (What. of course, does not imply he will ever succeed - I'd rather bet on the opposite.)
 
I'd like you to "quote" that mnemonic said that. If you can't then you make it up. ==

I believe, I explained myself enough. However, if there are any objections... Let's ask Mr. Mnemonic what HE is considering a "small money" - the upper limit - and than we decide (1) if we agree about what is small and what is big and (2) what the payment plans might be that provides for such kind of profit.

== Quote from: Zorro on Today at 06:26:41pm
Let's examine one of the leading arguments of this thread: the alternatives "free for non-commercial, extremely expensive for (quasi) commercial" and "cheap for everybody".
 
Where did you find this line (except the free for non-commercial part)? Please give me like because I can't fine it anywhere. ==

Where did you learned that quotation marks always mean quotation? You yourself used them to in different context just a few lines above. Anyway, do you have any objections to the MEANING of what I said?

== Quote from: Zorro on Today at 06:26:41pm
Sorry, man, but why should I appreciate your aspirations to become the next Bill Gates?

He said that too I guess....e? ==

Absolutely. The whole point of all this discussion (which I'd prefer to avoid) is "what would happen if somebody gets REALLY rich using this engine." And Mr. Mnemonic's point is (I'm lazy to search but he did say so, albeit in slightly different words): "If somebody became millionaire using my engine I want to become millionaire as well." So I'm asking the question again: why should I appreciate Mr. Mnemonic's aspirations to become filthy rich? You see, it's rather ethical than practical question.

== Quote from: Zorro on Today at 06:26:41pm
(As a matter of fact, I'd rather prefer nobody was rich.)

At least there is one thing that we agree ==

Are we? So why you're protecting Mr. Mnemonic's "right" to become rich? Especially he's obviously not sharing our(?) views on the subject.

== Yeah, very mature... you just cursed a computer program... ==

Do it every day (workday, I mean).

== Quote from: Zorro on Today at 06:26:41pm
we gave him ideas, how to improve it, we advertised his product, etc, etc, etc. There would be NO product without us, so where is OUR share?

I will have a better engine for my games (amateur or commercial). ==

That would cost you more and more and more... every subsequent version.

However, I might say the same about Mr. Mnemonic: he will have more good games to play. How about that?

== We will help him to become rich? You said before that he will never be rich... ==

IF he become rich. Once again, we're not talking about real money, but rather about moral questions surrounding some ephemeral money.

== It seems that have never downloaded the engine 'cause in this case you would know what the engine is capable of. ==

That I answered elsewhere.

== First you accuse him of being professional who only think about money and then now you say that he is an amateur. ==

He is amateur aiming for big money. Not that uncommon situation.

== Quote from: Zorro on Today at 06:26:41pm
develop his engine for the sake of it, for the people that would use it (i.e. for us), not for the money it might or might not bring him.

He is doing that... I am developing an adventure game now without to have to buy an engine. ==

And BG gives away IE. Does that makes him "developing IE for the sake of it?" Sheesh!

== So, when someone argues with you then he "considers you an unworthy potential member"? ==

Not at all. But how could I be sure about you?

== I am creating an adventure game now that it will be free (maybe even opensource). ==

Cool.

== Quote from: Zorro on Today at 06:26:41pm
2. We grant Mr. Mnemonic (and each other) an unlimited rights to play all of our current and future games. For FREE.

3. Mr. Mnemonic grants us an unlimited rights to create games with the current and all future versions of his engine. For FREE.
 
Why should we do that? I someone wants to create a game he is free to do so... even if it's commercial game. ==

Just my proposal. And how you words contradict mine?
Logged

odnorf

  • w00t?
  • Global Moderator
  • Addicted to WME forum
  • *
  • Karma: 7
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1454
  • Lamp dog!
    • View Profile
Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2003, 10:51:55 PM »

To Zorro:

Oooo, please, you have said that you don't like the licence a lot of times. Don't you think that one time is enought?

And a few quick answers about what you said:
1)You said about GPL (don't you?). Isn't that opensource?
2)You keep says that mnemonic says "blah...blah..." but what he really thinking was something else... Don't tell me that you aren't guessing.
3)And I am not pretecting Mnemonic's (why is this Mr. thing? You don't call me Mr. I don't call you Mr. This is just a forum. Don't you think that you are a little ironic here? Do you thing that this the correct approach when talking?) right to become rich. I just don't think that WME's licence is as bad as you think. It's logical and fair. He creates a product. I use it and I earn money, he gets money, I don't earn money, he doesn't.
4)Let's not make this political. I have understand that I have different political views than mnemonic. If I had created WME then I am quite sure that I will have chosen a different licence. But that doesn't tell anything. It doesn't mean than the current licence is bad (I'm using the engine so...) or that Mnemonic is bad and I am good.
5)He said that he is working in this engine for 2 years (and that's true... If you don't believe me I can tell you that he had the first betas at August 2002 -Including realtime 3D characters rendering). He doesn't worth to earn some money? I mean... think of it... 2 years... he hasn't created simple pong game...
6)It seems that what you are trying to do is make us (and especially me) argue with mnemonic. I can tell you that this is not going to happen with me (at least not about the licence). You posts (with the same things over and over) starts to look like trolling to me.
7)Please... Let's stop this. Make up your mind and decide if you'd like to use this engine or not with the current licence. We have a small community here that we all like...
8)If you want engines with other licences then you could try those:
sludge (you will love this one, it has a fixed-price)
mad (it's opensource)
lixoo (it's opensource but incomplete... but I guess until you have created everything you need for your game - script, puzzles, characters, backgrounds, music, etc - it will be ready)
9)Please (again), let's stop this. If you have something to tell me, send me a privete message and I am sure that we can solve everything.
Logged
fl*p

Zorro

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Karma: 0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19
  • I'm NOT a llama!
    • View Profile
Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2003, 11:20:39 PM »

== So, this is what it's all about? You want me to give you the engine for free? And you are wrong, the licencing of the other development tools varies. ==

As you might remember, I already offered to $100. However I would definitely appreciate and highly respect you if you started something  like "GNU adventure engine" project.

== This is just ridiculous. I won't event comment it (*again*). ==

But why? Just tell us where, in your opinion, is a line between small and big money.

== Sure, that would be perfectly fair for you. But shouldn't the engine developer have guarantees too? No, of course not. ==

Why not? You're guaranteed your hundred bucks. It's not enough for you? So how much is enough - that's all I'm asking! But the only thing you've answered so far is, in effect, "anything isn't enough - I want to make as much as possible." Am I wrong? If so, tell us the final figure.

== He just wrote a piece of crappy buggy software, it probably took him no more than two weekends to hack it together ==

I never put it THAT way.

== and now he wants to take our hard earned money. ==

Well, don't you?

== While we are using his product only because we don't have enough money to purchase a commercial grade engine. ==

Sounds defamatory but isn't it true?

== So he can kiss our asses... ==

Of course, you'd prefer other way around... I, however, would prefer nobody kisses nobody's asses.

== Ok, I don't wanna become fithy rich, but I don't wanna become other people's source of cheap (prefferably free) labour neither! ==

Fair enough. So what IS you definition of "not that cheap" labor? How much money you WANT to make with your engine?

== Call me naive, but I thought everyone would benefit from the engine improvements. Well, obviously I was wrong. Silly me. ==

Well, as I already pointed elsewhere it depends. It's not that there are not good engines around. The problem is they're WAY TOO EXPENSIVE. Could it happen, that at some point your improved engine will become so-o damn good that we'll just not be able to use it - we all got pretty tight budgets, you know...

== Great, there's nothing easier! Just make your game freeware and we won't have to deal with the finacial crap at all! Why don't you? ==

I think, I already explained that. Because adventure games are usually rather big (measured in gigs) so downloading them - not an option. Would you consider a "freeware" game that is sold in stores but that specifically states it can be legally copied for free? But even that might be impossible: there is indeed one such game - developed by the Pentagon - but retailes (and game publishes) might don't like somebody else try the same.

== So, what were you trying to say by this post? That I should stop developing WME because I'll never be able to match Microsoft's... ==

Not at all. Quite opposite - I ask you NOT to became Microsoft.

== And a personal note: I've lived about 12 years of my life in a country driven by a communist government. ==

Well, well, well... Now we went political.

He-ey, ZackDoneo-o... Are you listening? It isn't like Mr. Mnemonic is in your shoes at all. It's not sounding like "survival problem" - rather "greedy capitalist wannabe problem."

== That's how I learned that communism simply doesn't work in the real world... ==

I see you were a pretty smart kid: just 12 years old - and so mature conclusions based on the personal experience. I bet you started your studies at age 4 and by 8 already mastered Marx, Keins, Ain Rand and all other thinkers that came before you.

Care to share with us your thoughts?

BTW, talking about commmunism. I've recently found a nice piece on the subject. It's called "The Economics of Star Trek"
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Trek-Marxism.html
Logged

Jerrot

  • Global Moderator
  • Addicted to WME forum
  • *
  • Karma: 0
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 690
    • View Profile
Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2003, 11:24:57 PM »

Aye, Mr. Mr. Zorro is back from his search for the perfect commercial engine, fully documented, running bugfree on all computers including gameboy, x-box and UMTS, which costs about - hm, 100 bucks... ? Including all source-codes of course.

OK, I don't want to discuss this anymore, everyone described his point of view and it seems, Mr. Mr. Zorro, you cannot accept we don't want to follow YOUR opinion. But no, Mr. Mr. Zorro has to get impudent and insulting again and again, I'm not even sure he is aware about this... Get the point: you did NOTHING but crying around about licence fees here, Mnemonic developes WME. You should pay $100 for the time I took to read your crap. I promise I will not take a percentage for following posts from you (for I'll ignore them!). Just go and buy some commercial engine and flame the authors if you find a bug. If they will answer you. Or even read you.

Good luck anyway, sorry for getting that nasty, but your discussion style just got too ridiculous to follow with arguments.  >:(
« Last Edit: April 29, 2003, 11:25:52 PM by Jerrot »
Logged
Mooh!

odnorf

  • w00t?
  • Global Moderator
  • Addicted to WME forum
  • *
  • Karma: 7
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1454
  • Lamp dog!
    • View Profile
Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2003, 11:40:56 PM »

To zorro:

I don't think that this is the place to talk about politics. I don't feel the same way as mnenonic do about communism. As a matter of fact I have a lot of friends that are communists and, politicaly speaking, I am (very, very) closer to them than with mnemonic. BUT what THAT has to do with WME and Mnemonic (who I consider as a friend of mine).

You are abusing the forum here and you offend people just because you don't like the licence for a program that you are not going to use. Does this look logical to you? All you have to do is to use some other engine (sludge's licence seems like the best for you, with a low fixed-price) and come back here in 2 years to see if things will evolve the way you think. Will you do that?
Logged
fl*p

Zorro

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Karma: 0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19
  • I'm NOT a llama!
    • View Profile
Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2003, 12:24:42 AM »

To Mr. Mnemonic

== Don't get me wrong. I don't think the current system is perfect. I just don't know of any better at the moment...  ==

I don't. Just don't see any practical difference between "perfect" and "the best around". On the other hand, "I hate it" is more close to "the worst around" in my book and if a person "hates even the concept of money" (s)he, probably hates the systems based solely on that very concept.
Logged

Zorro

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Karma: 0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19
  • I'm NOT a llama!
    • View Profile
Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2003, 01:18:54 AM »

to odnorf:

== Oooo, please, you have said that you don't like the licence a lot of times. Don't you think that one time is enought? ==

Actually, I said it just once. And I do believe it's enogh. But if some people continue and continue to try to convince me I'm wrong, what should I do?

== 1)You said about GPL (don't you?). Isn't that opensource? ==

No, it isn't. It's not just free, it's Free. Gosh, of all men you, with your political views should know what GPL actually means.

== 2)You keep says that mnemonic says "blah...blah..." but what he really thinking was something else... Don't tell me that you aren't guessing. ==

No, I don't. If something's unclear? I ASK. Well, sometimes he doesn't answer, but the refusal to answer is usually an answer in itself.

== 3)And I am not pretecting Mnemonic's (why is this Mr. thing? ==

Well, isn't it just polite to address in such a way a person aiming to become a capitalist?

== You don't call me Mr. ==

And why should I? But if you care, I can address you Cmde.

== I don't call you Mr. ==

Same thing.

== right to become rich. ==

Ahem... A little contradiction with what you told one post later, don't you think?

== 4)Let's not make this political. ==

Did I ever try?

== It doesn't mean than the current licence is bad ==

Well, I still didn't see any licence except "$$$" so what can I say?

== or that Mnemonic is bad and I am good. ==

Just wondering what would happen if... OK, OK, OK, let's not talk politics.

== 5)He said that he is working in this engine for 2 years ... He doesn't worth to earn some money? ==

Did I ever said so? But if you put it anoter way: does he worth to earn millions? - the answer will be: NO. Because NOBODY worth.

== 6)It seems that what you are trying to do... ==

Not at all. As you might noticed, I already retreted from this forum. Now I've got some kind of automatic email inviting me to continue discussion what I did after I read a few new posts. Is it wrong? Am I not allowed to do so? After all, nobody forces you or anybody else reading this particular thread if you're not interested in the subject.

== 7)... We have a small community here that we all like... ==

That much I've understood already: you all like each other and don't like me. But don't worry - I'll survive.

== but I guess until you have created everything you need for your game... ==

That's right - I'm in no hurry, so why not to shop around? May be I even manage to convince Mr. Mnemonic to give up that Mr. thing?

== I don't think that this is the place to talk about politics. ==

Why not? The board description is quite clear: "Feel free to talk about anything and everything in this board."

== You are abusing the forum here ==

But of course, it's YOU who is to decide...

== and you offend people just because... ==

How do I offend people? By calling greed - greed? OK, I'm sorry about that. Next time I'll call it "entrepreneurialism", would it be OK with you?
Logged

ZackDoneo

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Karma: 0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4
  • I'm a llama!
    • View Profile
Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2003, 04:42:20 AM »

I'm a bit ill at the moment, so I'm not exactly sure how legible or accurate my response will be, but I'll try. At least I can breathe out of both nostrils again. And I may say things that have already been said or asked, but I'm out of it...

I have a question for you, Zorro: what exactly is it that you're wanting to create that will/may become worth billions? Even modern games don't really do that well, and they have a larger market than adventure games, let alone amateur adventure games...

Side-note: Communist countries aren't exactly great places to live... Depends on how well it's initiated. I think it usually goes along the lines of trying to make everyone equal means that nobody can be rich, and it's often difficult just to keep your own food... It's complicated. Don't really feel up to reading that article at the moment - I'll do that tomorrow and give a better opinion on it...

Mnemonic: Do you still live in a communist country, out of curiousity?

I really don't see that a percentage is all that bad, really. All businesses do it. Microsoft does it. Sunsoft has, Apple, Yahoo... I'd be surprised if any business hasn't done that sort at one time or another. Even simple retail stores do it constantly.

Retail stores... we'll take a book store, for example. Someone writes a book. They get a publisher, and it's sent through to a whole bunch of bookstores. The bookstores are told "Buying price for you is 15 dollars" (this is for a hard-back, by the way). The author gets maybe 7.50 dollars for each book sold, publisher gets 7.50 as well. However, if it's left at fifteen dollars, the book store gets nothing and can't stay open. So they raise it to whatever the standard is (usually something like $20).

This is similar to the case for what Mnemonic wants. On any computer program development team, there's usually going to be programmers, artists, musicians, writers, and drudge workers, maybe a few other types. He cuts your work in half by removing most of the programming you would have to do. There's still probably some you have to do, but not nearly as much as if he hadn't provided the program.

Now, once the game is all done, they have to send it through to the publisher, who sends it on to the retail store, saying buying price is something like... $30 dollars. Retail store adds on a bit, yadda yadda, same as the book store. Then they send the publishers (or producers, whatever they're called...) their bit, and then the development team gets some money.

Now, since Mnemonic did most of the work for your programming, as well as adding in a few other features (sprite animations, all that...) he is essentially a part of your 'team'. While you may be making the game, he made the program that allows you to make it.

AGS would not allow you to sell it commercially, at least not without some credit or money to them (I'd have to check. I do -not- feel like searching around right now, but I do remember that detail... they may not allow you to sell it commercially at all... don't exactly remember completely.) and I'm fairly certain any other such program would require the same - as does Wintermute.

So. He gets a percentage, just like any development team, because he is essential to the development of your program. Unless you want to figure out how to code it all yourself, or unless I'm wrong about most such programs requiring a fee of -some- sort to sell commercially.

I'll give you a few names to check into, and see whether they're doing something similar - should be in their FAQs. AGS, MAD, and I think others on this thread mentioned more. I can't think of anymore.

It's quite normal for someone who puts two years into their work to desire something out of it.



Oh, another side-note... about Microsoft and DOS... Microsoft didn't design DOS. They bought out the owners/programmers of it, who are probably regretting greatly selling it to them. They were not on Microsoft's team, or salary, beyond the one-time sum of money. I think you can probably look it up... There's a webpage called "History of Microsoft" or something like that.



And my last note: Being sick sucks. Badly.
Logged

Zorro

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Karma: 0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19
  • I'm NOT a llama!
    • View Profile
Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #53 on: April 30, 2003, 06:26:36 AM »

To ZackDoneo:

== ... that will/may become worth billions? ==

I've absolutely no clue where you've got that strange idea.

== Side-note: Communist countries aren't exactly great places to live... ==

Ever tried? Care to share some bad memories with us?

== Mnemonic: Do you still live in a communist country, out of curiousity? ==

Are you THAT sick? He definitely lives NOT in Cuba.

== I really don't see that a percentage is all that bad, really. All businesses do it. Microsoft does it. ==

I, personally, think it's rather good example of not bad but EXTREMELY bad.

== On any computer program development team, there's usually going to be programmers, artists, musicians, writers, and drudge workers, maybe a few other types. ==

True. Now we're talking some meaningful stuff.

== He cuts your work in half by removing most of the programming you would have to do. ==

But here I lost you. You've just mentioned a whole bunch of people and than saying Mr. Mnemonic did a HALF of a job??? Sorry man, but my math teacher would say that if 10 people spent 2 years developing a game than each one did 10%, not 50%/

== Now, once the game is all done, they have to send it through to the publisher, who sends it on to the retail store... ==

Cool, I agree with you. So let's presume we split it roughly 3 equal parts - developers, publishers, disributors. That brings us to 33% for ALL of developers. Now, if we have something like 10 developers in a team, that makes approximally 3.3% per person. So, what should be Mr. Mnemonic's share? I agree it wouldn't be fair if he got less for his job. But don't ypu think it would be equally unfair if he get MORE? Especially MUCH more. Are we on the same page? If so, let's continue our calculations. Mr. Mnemonic, as you remember, does not, actually, works in a single team but rather services SEVERAL teams at the same time and drows his profits from ALL of them. So to give him an EQUAL share we must divide the regular developer's share by the number of simultaneously working teams. I don't think it would be an exaggeration to presume (when things finaly starts up) there will be at lest 10 teams present. That puts Mr. Mnemonic's FAIR share at 0.33% of the retail price. What is 60 TIMES less than you've suggested. I believe your illness did impact your math skills.

Now, how much would it be in the monetary figures? You've mentioned $30 per copy but that's a price of the top-level adventures. The average price is $20 and it's quite possible we'll have to cope with just $15. What makes Mr. Mnemonics share from 5 to 10 cents per sold copy. Does he agree on such royalties? Let's ask him.

== Microsoft didn't design DOS. ==

Yes, that's kinda a common knowledge.

== They bought out the owners/programmers of it, who are probably regretting greatly selling it to them. ==

I don't think so. DOS, honestly, was not just crap, but a REAL crap. But much more important, by that time IBM alredy has chosen Microsoft so for that guys the alternatives were not to sell DOS to Microsoft for small bucks or to IBM for BIG BUCKS, but to sell it to Microsoft for whatever it was pleased to pay or to sell it to nobody at all. Does it sucks? Of course! But it IS capitalism and it's not me who's defending it here.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2003, 06:28:59 AM by Zorro »
Logged

odnorf

  • w00t?
  • Global Moderator
  • Addicted to WME forum
  • *
  • Karma: 7
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1454
  • Lamp dog!
    • View Profile
Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #54 on: April 30, 2003, 10:18:00 AM »

Actually, I said it just once. And I do believe it's enogh. But if some people continue and continue to try to convince me I'm wrong, what should I do?

Read my posts.. I try to stop this... AND YOU DIDN"T WANT TO. I was polite and you don't. I quote what you said the answer to that and you just answer without first understand what I was saying.

== 1)You said about GPL (don't you?). Isn't that opensource? ==

No, it isn't. It's not just free, it's Free. Gosh, of all men you, with your political views should know what GPL actually means.

Did I say "Free"? I don't believe that GPL is free (well, BSD is...). You don't seem to understand the it seems that politically we are very close but that doesn' mean that I have to offend people and don't know were to stop.What I said is GPL is opensource...
check http://www.opensource.org/licenses/gpl-license.php

== 3)And I am not pretecting Mnemonic's (why is this Mr. thing? ==

Well, isn't it just polite to address in such a way a person aiming to become a capitalist?

No, it's just ironic.

== 4)Let's not make this political. ==

Did I ever try?

Well, you called mnemonic a capitalist monster that want's to steal you money. Wouldn't you call that political.

== It doesn't mean than the current licence is bad ==

Well, I still didn't see any licence except "$$$" so what can I say?

Download the pacjage and you will find the licence. I can e-mail it to you if you like.

== or that Mnemonic is bad and I am good. ==

Just wondering what would happen if... OK, OK, OK, let's not talk politics.

No, I would like to here what you have to say buy, PLEASE, in a personnal message.

== 6)It seems that what you are trying to do... ==

Not at all. As you might noticed, I already retreted from this forum. Now I've got some kind of automatic email inviting me to continue discussion what I did after I read a few new posts. Is it wrong? Am I not allowed to do so? After all, nobody forces you or anybody else reading this particular thread if you're not interested in the subject.

OK, do you agree to stop this here. I will ever let you answer last to what I said. What do you think about that?

== 7)... We have a small community here that we all like... ==

That much I've understood already: you all like each other and don't like me. But don't worry - I'll survive.

Did I say that I don't like you? It seems that politically I really like you, and I'd like you to send me an e-mail to talk further if you like. I just don't like what you are doing here.

== but I guess until you have created everything you need for your game... ==

That's right - I'm in no hurry, so why not to shop around? May be I even manage to convince Mr. Mnemonic to give up that Mr. thing?

But you have tried. Isn't that enough? Mnemonic heard your opinions.

== I don't think that this is the place to talk about politics. ==

Why not? The board description is quite clear: "Feel free to talk about anything and everything in this board."

I didn't say that it's illegal. What I said is that it just doesn't fit well. E-mail me and we can talk politics as much as you like. You know, all my life is about politics.
If you decide to send me an e-mail please use my very personnal (only for m friends) mail : odnorf at master.math.upatras.gr

Are you THAT sick? He definitely lives NOT in Cuba.

Well if you live in cuba I can understand you now more clearer and I really envy you. You happen to be lucky and living in the only communism coutry (except Russia at the time of Lenin) that is really a communism country. You know, here in europe all the east countries that are supposed to had communism in the past years they really didn't. The people who where in power said that they were communists but if fact they were facists. (All those are *My* and only *MY* political views.)
Logged
fl*p

Mnemonic

  • WME developer
  • Administrator
  • Addicted to WME forum
  • *
  • Karma: 41
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 5679
    • View Profile
    • Dead:Code Site
Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #55 on: April 30, 2003, 07:27:27 PM »

Mnemonic: Do you still live in a communist country, out of curiousity?
Nope, after 40 years of bringing the communism to life, leaving the country economically and morally crippled, my homeland has trasformed into a parliamentary democracy in 1989... with all its pro's and con's.

But to be really objective here, I'll just quote odnorf:

The people who where in power said that they were communists but if fact they were facists.
Yes, they just used the communist ideology. I guess they may have as well used any other ideology out there (with the same final results). So when I blaming communism, I'm probably actually blaming any kind of propaganda, used by one small group of people to manipulate and oppress the others and to gain as much as possible out of it.

But if you ask for my very personal opinion, I don't think the human society is ready for the *real* communism neither... yet.


EDIT: Boy! I can't believe I'm discussing politics on the WME forum! :o
« Last Edit: April 30, 2003, 07:28:27 PM by Mnemonic »
Logged
Yes, I do have a twitter account
Please don't send me technical questions in private messages, use the forum. ::wave

Zorro

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Karma: 0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19
  • I'm NOT a llama!
    • View Profile
Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2003, 08:26:28 PM »

To odnorf:

== Read my posts.. I try to stop this... ==

Then you've chosen a wrong way. If you REALLY want stop something, just STOP. That's all it takes.

== Did I say "Free"? I don't believe that GPL is free (well, BSD is...). ... What I said is GPL is opensource... ==

Read the legalese more attentively. However, in plain English GPL means that you're FREE to do with software whatever you want with a single important exception: you can't appropriate it. That, of course, includes freedom to use it without, well... for free. Actually, you're free even to sell it (even if it was written by somebody else) if you find a person or organization willing to pay for it - there is nothing wrong or contradictory about it: software is still free, but media, packaging, delivery, installation, support - are something that still costs money. One other freedom is to study and modify free software what indeed implies open source but if we're talking about "open source initiative" in itself it means only that - you're given a source code without any freedoms to use it as YOU please. "Open source software" is still copyrighted by its legal owners and can be legally "closed" at any time, never mind that you have no rights to use (copy, distribute, etc.) it without proper license. On the other hand GPL'ed software is "copylefted" what means it's public domain and it (or any part of it) can't be appropriated under any circumstances. In particular that means that any additions, modifications, and products, based on GPL'ed software (see LGPL, though) are AUTOMATICALLY enter public domain and become GPL'ed at the moment of publication. (That's why BG calls GPL a "highly contaminating virus" - it immediately infects everything it touches.)

== No, it's just ironic. ==

:)

== Well, you called mnemonic a capitalist monster that want's to steal you money. Wouldn't you call that political. ==

No, not "monster". And I never spoke about MY money in particular. And not even about "stealing". Actually, if "property is a theft", what's the point of talking about stealing money?

== Download the pacjage and you will find the licence. I can e-mail it to you if you like. ==

Just did. But it says something like "To obtain a different license for commercial use, contact..." Trying. Without any visible success.

== No, I would like to here what you have to say buy, PLEASE, in a personnal message. ==

OK. When I return home.

== OK, do you agree to stop this here. I will ever let you answer last to what I said. What do you think about that? ==

I'm not sure I've understood you. Did you mean "I will Never let you..."?

== Did I say that I don't like you? ==

Well, not directly...

== It seems that politically I really like you, and I'd like you to send me an e-mail to talk further if you like. ==

Will do.

== I just don't like what you are doing here. ==

Just talking. What's wrong about it? No, really, can I repeat it once more? NOBODY IS FORCED TO READ THIS THREAD.

== But you have tried. Isn't that enough? Mnemonic heard your opinions. ==

Yes. And he even expressed his desire to hear different opinions on the subject so what's your problem? It's HIS forum so if he decides the discussion MUST be over he might close this thread, delete it, ban myself, you, or whoever else... As of yourself, you're free to stop reading it if you don't like it.

== Well if you live in cuba ==

Nah...

== The people who where in power said that they were communists but if fact they were facists. ==

You're wrong one way (about Cuba) or another (about the rest of the socialist countries) - they're not that different as Western "left anticommunists" like to believe. This, however, is a large separate topic.
Logged

Zorro

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Karma: 0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19
  • I'm NOT a llama!
    • View Profile
Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2003, 08:32:40 PM »

== So when I blaming communism, I'm probably actually blaming any kind of propaganda, used by one small group of people to manipulate and oppress the others and to gain as much as possible out of it. ==

I can understand that. But why call it "communism"? Capitalists are much smaller group and manipulate and oppress the others much more (I'm even not talking about personal gains).
Logged

odnorf

  • w00t?
  • Global Moderator
  • Addicted to WME forum
  • *
  • Karma: 7
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1454
  • Lamp dog!
    • View Profile
Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2003, 11:05:40 PM »

== OK, do you agree to stop this here. I will ever let you answer last to what I said. What do you think about that? ==

I'm not sure I've understood you. Did you mean "I will Never let you..."?

What I said is that you can have the last word and we can stop this (about the WME).

== It seems that politically I really like you, and I'd like you to send me an e-mail to talk further if you like. ==

Will do.

Thanks :)

== Well if you live in cuba ==

Nah...

Sorry, I hope that you didn't offend.

== The people who where in power said that they were communists but if fact they were facists. ==

You're wrong one way (about Cuba) or another (about the rest of the socialist countries) - they're not that different as Western "left anticommunists" like to believe. This, however, is a large separate topic.

Well, *I* believe that they are different cases (and socialism is not the same thing as communism... they are different stages in the same road). And I am non an "anticommunist"... This maybe sound strange to you : I believe communism can be a good thing BUT it's not free enought for me. What I have in my mind goes further than that when it cames to freedom...

PS. About the GPL : Well it seems that we are not really making sense. You used it first. Then I asked you what "free" software (not as the "free" = no money -- but the more complicated political "free" term ... well that's my mistake... I should have talk that) has to do with opensource. Then you said that you didn't speak about GPL. Here you really lost me.. then... then... then... I reallt don't think that we make any sense :) And I still haven't understand if you think that GPL is free (not the "no money" term) and if you like it.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2003, 12:04:46 AM by odnorf »
Logged
fl*p

Brassfire

  • Occasional poster
  • **
  • Karma: 0
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
    • The Unknown Hero
Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #59 on: May 03, 2003, 05:51:50 AM »

Oh, wow. So much fuss...

Mnemonic, have you changed that line on the page yet? I really suggest you do so, because THAT is what everyone is misinterpreting. Change "it will cost $$$" to "please enquire with the developer about what would be fair in your particular case" or something. PLEASE. Then post that here as well and lock the stupid thread... unless we totally go OT and continue talking politics. lol

1. If someone makes anything free for non-commercial use, they are not out for BIG money. Ok?
(This deletes that entire section of the arguments as irrelevant.)

2. If someone wants to make something if you make something OFF THEIR WORK, they are not necessarily out for BIG money.
(Again, this deletes that entire argument as irrelevant.)

3. If someone charges any fixed price, they are more likely to be out to make money than someone who says "this is on a case-by-case basis, please contact me."
(Because that is NOT fair for people who are not going to be making money off their own work either... And another argument demolished.)

4. If you really want a free and opensource engine, use a different engine.
(There are alternatives - if you don't like something, don't use it. There goes THAT whole argument.)

 ;D

Now, on to the political stuff: www.politicalcompass.org shows how it is not "left" or "right" that is the problem per se, it is "authoritarianism" or "fascism". Hitler was close to the center, leaning right, which is why he became popular - his political views are in fact shared by many. But he was authoritarian, and that gave rise to the human rights abuses of his regime. Stalin was definitely leftist, but was also authoritarian.

Left or right merely means you have a difference of opinion on what to do to govern people and countries. Authoritarianism or libertarianism means you have a difference of opinion in HOW you achieve that, and authoritarianism justifies abuse by it's very nature.

I strongly recommend that people take the test. It's definitely interesting to see how your own beliefs stack up on the chart compared to well-known political leaders.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5
 

Page created in 0.245 seconds with 23 queries.