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Author Topic: So, how much it's gonna cost?  (Read 33807 times)

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Zorro

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So, how much it's gonna cost?
« on: March 19, 2003, 10:42:14 PM »

That "you will have to obtain a separate license and it will cost you $$$" does not sound nice. Not nice at all. It might easily turn into something like $50,000 + 10% royalties when you already stuck with WME lured to a "free" engine.
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Ionias

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2003, 03:35:07 AM »

I'm also interested in the final "price" ;)
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Brassfire

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2003, 05:55:18 PM »

Yeah, Mnemonic, you really need to change that phrase.

Guys - he said he'd be reasonable about it. Obviously if you were to make millions (or even thousands) off your game, he'd want something because you wouldn't even have a game if not for the engine. If you're very unlikely to make money off your game, even if you are selling it... well, you aren't going to have the money to pay him something big, right? But you have to discuss it with him on a case-by-case basis.
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Mnemonic

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2003, 06:57:45 PM »

It might easily turn into something like $50,000 + 10% royalties
Uh, do I look like I'm crazy or something?  ???
If I wanted to become filthy rich, I wouldn't spend all my free time working on WME, that's for sure. There are better ways for me to make money, believe me. It's a hobby for me, you know?


when you already stuck with WME lured to a "free" engine.
What do you mean, "lured to a free engine"? I believe I made it clear enough it's totally free for non-commercial use only.


Yeah, Mnemonic, you really need to change that phrase.
Yeah, you're right. I just have million other things to think about other than the licensing scheme...
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Zorro

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2003, 07:33:12 PM »

Yeah, Mnemonic, you really need to change that phrase.

Guys - he said he'd be reasonable about it. Obviously if you were to make millions (or even thousands) off your game, he'd want something because you wouldn't even have a game if not for the engine. If you're very unlikely to make money off your game, even if you are selling it... well, you aren't going to have the money to pay him something big, right? But you have to discuss it with him on a case-by-case basis.

So, everything depends on HIS definition of "reasonable"? And I see nothing "obvious" in "discuss it with him on a case-by-case basis". Shell we also discuss it that way with Microsoft "because you wouldn't even have a game if not for the" Windows and VC++? Or would you? When I'm buying a set of paints and brushes nobody cares if I paint the next Mona Lisa or just my fence. No paint maker won't even TRY to claim any credit in results of artist's work.

I imagine the dialog: "OK, for now you can take this set completely free, we shell see how your works sell and then make a REASONABLE arrangement..."

I've just checked Sludge's page. It costs 50 bucks and NO royalties whatsoever. THAT's reasonable.
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Zorro

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2003, 07:42:43 PM »

Look, Mnemonic, I'm not trying to insult you or anything. I'm just trying to evaluate the viability of using your engine in a series of adventure games. All I'm asking you is to name the price, that's it.
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Brassfire

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2003, 11:52:25 PM »

I would rather he did decide on a case-by-case basis.

I haven't even discussed my game with Mnemonic yet, but I do trust he's making the engine just for the enjoyment of it, or he wouldn't have it available on a free basis even for non-commercial, not-for-profit use. From what I know so far, he is a reasonable and considerate person.

If you are making a series of adventure games that you plan to sell, then you might want to make a realistic projection of how many people are likely to buy your games, and work out what your costs will be, and *then* talk to Mnemonic. (That's why I haven't talked to him yet about payment, besides which the first parts of the game are free, and I won't know what the interest is for the paid parts until after the free ones are released.)

If you're just doing it for fun, then you're probably not going to be making much money anyway.

If you want a price, talk to Mnemonic, don't try to force him to say one price which won't work for all other cases, and which may ruin it for those of us who can't pay what you would consider reasonable.
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Ionias

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2003, 12:54:00 AM »

Let me just clarify my position.

I am going to make another commercial game. Right now I'm using AGS for my current project. Which is free even for commercial use. However, looking to the future I want to create a more commercialy viable game, and the WME engine looks perfect for the job. I'm just interested in the cost up front. If Mnemonic prefers to keep that on a game to game basis that's fine with me. I was just curious. ;)
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Zorro

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2003, 04:55:59 AM »

I would rather he did decide on a case-by-case basis.

I haven't even discussed my game with Mnemonic yet, but I do trust he's making the engine just for the enjoyment of it, or he wouldn't have it available on a free basis even for non-commercial, not-for-profit use. From what I know so far, he is a reasonable and considerate person.

If you are making a series of adventure games that you plan to sell, then you might want to make a realistic projection of how many people are likely to buy your games, and work out what your costs will be, and *then* talk to Mnemonic. (That's why I haven't talked to him yet about payment, besides which the first parts of the game are free, and I won't know what the interest is for the paid parts until after the free ones are released.)

If you're just doing it for fun, then you're probably not going to be making much money anyway.

If you want a price, talk to Mnemonic, don't try to force him to say one price which won't work for all other cases, and which may ruin it for those of us who can't pay what you would consider reasonable.

Well, what you've just said already implies he's gonna charge too much. But wait, if I did have such kind of money I'd probably go after the TLJ engine or something like that. Now, how he's gonna decide "on a case-by-case basis" if there is no any case yet? And AFTER the game is made what would prevent him to impose ANY charges? What options would I have if I don't like the price, trash everything and start from the scratch with some other engine? He's saying he's not dreaming of becoming filthy rich, so what he's dreaming of? Becoming not-that-filthy rich? If so, I'll just be looking elsewhere since I'm indeed not going to make tons of money (if any) from that project.

As I already said, Sludge costs $50. 3D GameStudio (commertial edition) costs $200 - well, it might be not specifically designed for adventure games but it would certainly do the trick and sa far as I can tell, it's more advanced than WME. None include any royalties etc. (BTW, does that "on a case-by-case basis" means I'd have to pay separately for EVERY game I made and every time the price will be "renegotiated"?) So let me tell you what _I_ believe is reasonable price: $100. That includes all future bugfixes, free udates for .X versons, and a limited email support for a couple of months. I don't think that such price would ruin anybody's plans. But if it ruins Mnemonic's plans... Well, greed is one of the mortal sins. If he does do it for fun and not for money he should be happy people are actually using his stuff. But if it's a purely commercial enterprise, I prefer to deal with it as with commertial enterprise - negotiate everything upfront because I know that the only thing they want is to rob me.

Lastly, about "commercial" use. It's not clear at all what "commercial" actually mean. The problem is adventure games are usually too big to be downloaded. And even if you find such enthusiasts you'll still end up with a huge net traffic bills. Thus, in ANY case you'll have to chage SOMETHING just to cover your delivery expences. You might also want to cover some of your other expences like 3D-modelling software, etc. You still are making games to make games, but would Mr.Mnemonic be REASONABLE enough to consider it non-commercial use? I'm not sure at all. So it's likely that ANY more or less decent game - whatever the author's intentions were - will turn out to be a "commercial" project, subject to UNKNOWN royalties. Which might FORCE author to rise the price to indeed a commercial level.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2003, 04:20:33 AM by Zorro »
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Ionias

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2003, 02:24:58 PM »

Zorro: I can understand your issues. However, you seem to be vilifying Mnemonic. Brassfire is the one who said he may decide on a case by case basis. Mnemonic said:

Quote
Quote
Quote from: Brassfire on Yesterday at 05:55:18pm
Yeah, Mnemonic, you really need to change that phrase.
 

Yeah, you're right. I just have million other things to think about other than the licensing scheme...
So cut the guy some slack. You've stated your concerns now give him some time to sort out the issues. I'm sure he'll figure it out and be fair about it.

Also, yes you can work on an adventure game before choosing an engine. You can work on the artwork. I worked at least 6 months on Fatman Adv before I even imported a single sprite into AGS.
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Jerrot

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2003, 02:30:21 PM »

...and finally I'm quite sure, that Mnemonic just wants to take over the world!  8)

SCNR! ;)
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Zorro

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2003, 03:57:32 PM »

Sure, lots can be done before chosing an engine so I'm not in a hurry at all. I'm just trying to figure out the budget.

As of vilifying Mnemonic, I'm not vilifying nobody. I asked him a very simple and direct question: the commercial licence price - in the initial message of this thread. But instead of giving me equally stright answer he started that he's not as greedy as I might think. So, what should I think now? I still have no answer.
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Brassfire

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2003, 07:47:02 PM »

Well, I can't do even $20 right now, so how is $100 a reasonable price for every case? If you want to pay him that, talk to him, but don't tell me I should pay that.

It makes more sense for you to work out what your expenses are, what you're charging, and how many people are really likely to buy your game before even asking a question like that.

Not only that, you could always do a free demo to test the engine and the audience, which will give you some estimate of your figures. Since the demo is free, you don't have to pay anything for the engine.

Oh, and have some trust, geez.
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Zorro

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2003, 04:53:07 AM »

C'mon, 20 bucks is 4 meals in McD, don't say you're THAT poor.

Than,  100 bucks sounds reasonable because WME seems to be better than Sludge that costs 50 bucks but worse than 3DGS, that costs 200 bucks - NOT because you or I can or can not pay such sum right away. Besides, ANYBODY can afford that price if it's due only when you go commercial.

Now, about trust. Why should I trust a person that refuses to answer a simple question that is important to me? Even worse, he clearly said that he just don't have time to devise a licensing scheme, what means there WILL BE some pretty complex licensing scheme - you don't need time to just say: "N bucks" and nobody would call it a "licensing scheme". And I don't like it. When Mnemonic himself bought VC++ (or whatever he bought) nobody asked him what he's gonna write, how many programs, what is his potential customers base and how much he's planning to charge for his products. He bought a tool and now it's only HIS busines how to use that tool. If he became multibillionaire using that tool - good for him. Just the same, I'm also buying a tool, I want to pay for it and than it will be only MY business what I do with it, I don't want ANY stinky licensing schemes.

Sure, I know that all MAJOR engines do carry all kinds of licensing schemes but that's exactly why can't afford them. All that companies care about nothing but money, all that licensing schemes designed with one single purpose: to squeeze as much money as possible. If Mnemonic is the same, I'll wish him luck and go somewhere else. On the other hand he did say he's here not for money, so I give him a chance to prove it, but so far his deeds say otherwise than words.
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Ionias

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Re:So, how much it's gonna cost?
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2003, 05:33:21 AM »

I think I only just now understand why Chris Jones has kept AGS free. ;)
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